Ep. 048 - Sandra Coan: Flywheels Are Better Than Funnels
Building a career around consistency is the name of the game, and nobody does it quite like Sandra Coan. With over 25 years in the photography world, she’s not just a family and newborn portrait photographer in Seattle, she’s an educator and author who’s all about using strobes for a natural light look. In this episode, we discuss how human connection fuels her work and why she believes that capturing the moment is more important than getting the technically perfect shot. We talk about her marketing methods and how any Creative can ditch the traditional marketing funnel for a better approach to finding clients. Sandra’s journey is a treasure trove of insights for both budding and seasoned photographers, filled with heartfelt stories and practical advice. So whether you're just starting out or have decades of experience, you’ll want to stick around for the wisdom that Sandra brings to the table.
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: Flywheels Are Better Than Funnels
Episode Number: 48
Publish Date: 9 May 2025
Episode Overview
In this heartfelt episode of Generator, I sit down with the incredible Sandra Coan—an award-winning photographer, educator, and author with over 25 years in the industry. We dive deep into what it means to build a business rooted in consistency, authenticity, and trust. Sandra shares how she developed her signature flywheel marketing method, why “shoot and burn” needs to be retired, and how lighting and connection go hand-in-hand. We talk about overcoming burnout, ditching the funnel, trusting your creative instincts, and why newborn photographers deserve a louder voice in the industry. Whether you’re brand new or a seasoned pro, this conversation is packed with insight, honesty, and a few unexpected laughs.
Takeaways:
- Sandra Coan emphasizes the importance of consistency in building a sustainable photography career, highlighting that true happiness follows when you find joy in your work.
- In the podcast, Sandra shares how she uses a client-centered marketing approach, focusing on building trust over chasing sales, which is crucial for photographers.
- The conversation reveals that capturing genuine moments is more about paying attention than achieving technical perfection, especially while working with families and newborns.
- Sandra discusses her journey from a kindergarten teacher to an award-winning photographer, illustrating how her teaching background influences her approach to both photography and client interaction.
- Throughout the episode, the idea of ‘slow photography’ is explored, with Sandra explaining how shooting film forces her to be more methodical and present during sessions.
- The podcast highlights the underrepresented niche of newborn and family photography, with Sandra advocating for the value and artistry within this area of the industry.
Resources and Links
- WEBSITE: www.sandracoaneducation.com
- INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/sandracoan/
Calls to Action
- Website: https://generatorpodcast.com
- Subscribe to Generator: Never miss an episode – subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
- Leave a Review: Head over to https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/generator/id1668192673 and leave us a 5 Star review if you liked the show! Help others discover this podcast.
- Follow on Social Media: Connect with us on Instagram or TikTok @generatorpodcast or on YouTube @stonetreecreative
Transcript
Welcome back to Generator, my friend.
Speaker A: nline radio thing since about: Speaker A:So there's something to say for longevity, doing the thing you love.
Speaker A:But what defines longevity is consistency.
Speaker A:Working in a way that is repeatable and efficient so that it never really feels like work.
Speaker A:If you can do that, then true happiness isn't that far behind.
Speaker A:And someone that encapsulates all of those best parts is Sandra Cohn.
Speaker A:For over 25 years, she's been photographing newborns and families and maternity portraits.
Speaker A:No gimmicks, no trends, just amazing light, honest emotion, and a deep respect for the people in front of her lens.
Speaker A:Sondra is not only a photographer, but she's an educator, an author, and quite honestly, a gold star example for other creatives who want to master their craft, grow their business, and keep their integrity intact along the way.
Speaker A:In this episode, we talk about what it means to build a career around consistency.
Speaker A:We explore how human connection plays such a strong role in our work, what teaching others has taught her, and why being a photographer is more about paying attention than getting the technically perfect shot.
Speaker A:This episode was so easy, not only because Sandra is so conversational, but because it's about heart.
Speaker A:These are the conversations that I live for.
Speaker A:So whether you're new to photography or 20 years in, I think Sandra's insight's going to hit home.
Speaker A:So now let's get on with the show.
Speaker A:How have you been since wppi?
Speaker A:Did you get sick or is everything kind of back to normal?
Speaker B:Got so sick after the show, I lost my voice, which happens every year.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then, yeah, we did get sick, but a lot of people did.
Speaker B:I wasn't cold because I tested like 14 times.
Speaker B:I was just like normal sick.
Speaker B:But you got sick, too.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:It was, you know, it's kind of like a 24 hour bug.
Speaker A:I'm used to it.
Speaker A:Anytime I go to Vegas, I don't know what I'm going to come home with.
Speaker A:And I know that sounds like a loaded statement, but, like, every time I go to Vegas, I worry about, you know, just travel sickness.
Speaker A:I don't concern myself with it too much, but I'm like, I'm going to probably one of the most crowded places on the planet.
Speaker A:I'm going to be rubbing up against people.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Something is going to make its way into my body.
Speaker B:And honestly, like, Vegas just baseline is pretty gross.
Speaker A:Pretty gross.
Speaker A:It's good to know your voice is back.
Speaker A:You were sounding a little bit hoarse at wpbi.
Speaker B:Oh, it was awful.
Speaker B:Like, the morning of my platform talk, I woke up, I had, like, no voice.
Speaker B:I thought I was going to have to, like, get really close to the microphone and, like, go, like, full, like, lounge singer.
Speaker B:It come back.
Speaker A:At the time that we're recording this, the episode that came out earlier this week was the WPPI recap.
Speaker A:I did it with Mitzi Starkweather.
Speaker A:I really do want to talk to you about your experience there.
Speaker A:With all the changes that happened this year, how did you feel like it was at the Rio?
Speaker A:Anything that you saw, good, bad, ugly.
Speaker A:And then also, how was it speaking on stage?
Speaker A:I was there.
Speaker A:I want to hear your take on it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, I love wpbi.
Speaker B:I feel like when I go to wppi, like, I'm seeing, like, my family, like, you know, friends, other speakers, even, like, people that I like, attendees that have come to my talks over the years and that I see every year.
Speaker B:I just really love that conference.
Speaker B:It feels like home to me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker B:Regardless of where it is, as far as, like, the location, this year, I was a little worried because I like consistent, predictable routines and I had the mirage mapped in my brain.
Speaker B:But I actually thought it was really good for me personally.
Speaker B:I had a great show.
Speaker B:I thought, like, the people who were there were really engaged and really excited.
Speaker B:I met a lot of people who.
Speaker B:It was their first wpbi, which was really fun.
Speaker B:And my class was interesting because the way the lighting worked in my room, I couldn't see the audience, which is.
Speaker B:Doesn't usually happen.
Speaker B:I could literally just see the front row.
Speaker B:So I had no idea what was happening.
Speaker B:And that part was a little challenging because, like, as a speaker, I like, I get a lot of energy from seeing interactions in the audience.
Speaker B:But then it was fun.
Speaker B:Like, it was like, a real pleasant surprise because then after I got off stage and I was able to come down, like, oh, like, the room is full.
Speaker B:Like, look at all your people in the back.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:So that was really fun.
Speaker B:I had a great show.
Speaker A:I heard from a few different presenters that kind of the infrastructure there was a little wonky.
Speaker A:Like, the lights were a little bit too bright on stage.
Speaker A:Some projectors were wonky.
Speaker A:The stage itself was really tiny.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Every.
Speaker A:Yeah, every seminar that I saw was a little bit different in those regards.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's just what you get in a conference center.
Speaker A:You get different types of rooms.
Speaker A:I sat through the majority of yours, but you were talking all about the modern marketing method and we're going to get into that because that, it spoke so much to me.
Speaker A:And this is really one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about because you've been on this, this train for a while in terms of teaching this style of marketing and being a lot more authentic and upfront.
Speaker A:And it doesn't have to be super produced and flashy.
Speaker A:It's just about human connection.
Speaker A:So I'd love to dive into a lot of that with you because it's a topic that's central to everything that I do and I love finding out how people use connection in their own businesses.
Speaker B:So I would love to talk about that because it's something I'm really, really passionate about.
Speaker B: ed my photography business in: Speaker B:So I've been in business for my 26th year.
Speaker B:And the, the marketing approach that I use is something that I kind of stumbled upon just out of necessity in my own business.
Speaker B:Yeah, but it works.
Speaker B:And the more that I, I learned about actual business branding and sales because I really do study that, still study it all the time.
Speaker B:It just, to me, it, it feels good as a small business owner to market this way, but it's also just really effective.
Speaker B:And one of the reasons why I love teaching this approach to photographers in particular is because we aren't like other brands and other businesses and other industries.
Speaker B:Like, we do really intimate work with people.
Speaker B:We're at people's weddings or, you know, when they're having their babies or, you know, even headshots.
Speaker B:Like there's something very vulnerable about standing in front of a camera and getting your picture taken.
Speaker B:And so we need to come at our marketing through that lens.
Speaker B:And the way that traditional marketing is taught doesn't necessarily align with that.
Speaker B:So that's why I'm so excited about teaching it.
Speaker B:And as far as, like, when I started teaching marketing, it's actually really funny because I'm known in the education space for lighting.
Speaker B:You know, that's what my first book was on lighting.
Speaker B:And most of my classes are lighting and that's what I teach.
Speaker B:Side note, lighting and business go hand in hand.
Speaker B:But my first big speaking gig, like the first time I was asked to speak on a big stage, I was asked to speak about marketing, business and marketing.
Speaker B:And I taught a version of what I teach.
Speaker B:Now, the name of that, the class that I taught at that time was Three Things Photographers need to Know to Build A six figure business or something like that.
Speaker B:And it was at the Click Away conference through Click Photo School.
Speaker A:Oh sure, okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: And I think it was: Speaker B:So it's interesting that I'm, I know from lighting, but honestly I've been speaking on stages about business and marketing longer than I've been speaking on stages about lighting.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:No, absolutely.
Speaker A:How do you compare traditional marketing to what we're doing in the creative field?
Speaker A:Doesn't even have to be just photography because I think a lot of your stuff can apply to artists of any event.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And it really goes beyond the creative work.
Speaker A:Where did you look at that traditional model and say, you know what, we can do this better?
Speaker B:For me it was being a business owner and working with clients and also like really checking in with myself about like what feels good and what doesn't feel good.
Speaker B:So traditional marketing, you know, as you know, and, and even what I was taught is that whole like marketing funnel.
Speaker B:Like we've all heard about the sales funnel or the marketing funnel, right?
Speaker B:And this is like the gold standard.
Speaker B:And so what happened in my career is I started like a lot of photographers do where I didn't think of photography as a job or whatever.
Speaker B:I was actually a full time kindergarten teacher with Seattle Public Schools and started photography on the side to supplement my income.
Speaker B:And then like so many photographers do are like, oh, okay, I'm going to do this full time, this is my job.
Speaker B:And with the idea in my head at that time that if I was going, you know, all I really needed to be a successful photographer is be good at photography.
Speaker B:And of course quickly learned that that is not true.
Speaker B:And so I was like really struggling just to make money and really struggling to find clients and all the things that photographers do.
Speaker B:And so I decided to study business.
Speaker B:I was like, okay, well clearly I don't know how to run a business because I've never been taught that.
Speaker B:And so that's what I did.
Speaker B:I went outside the industry and studied like you were saying that traditional corporate model and learned the sales funnel.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Because that's what people learn.
Speaker B:So for your listeners, if you're not familiar with the sales funnel, the sales funnel is this approach to marketing that honestly has been around since the dawn of time.
Speaker B:It's kind of the gold standard of marketing and how it works is top of the funnel.
Speaker B:You know, the top of the funnel is really broad and that's like the attract phase.
Speaker B:That's where you Try to get people's attention and, like, get them to notice you.
Speaker B:So for photographers, this is like, usually our photos, like what we're showing, what we're sharing, our portfolio.
Speaker B:And then you get them into the funnel.
Speaker B:And as they go through the funnel, it gets kind of smaller.
Speaker B:The first phase after attract is connect or connection, right?
Speaker B:You get them to reach out, send an email, make a call, that sort of thing.
Speaker B:Then you go into convincing them.
Speaker B:So once you get them on an email or a call, you tell them why you're the best photographer in the area and they should totally hire you, and then hopefully they hire you.
Speaker B:And so with a traditional model, everything you're doing from the attract phase, from the pictures that you're sharing, to the words that you're using on your website and your blog and social media, to what you're saying in emails, to what you're saying on those calls, all of that is with that sale, that final sale in mind.
Speaker B:And in theory, that sounds great, great.
Speaker B:And that's why the, you know, that model works and why that model has been taught for so long.
Speaker B:And for a lot of industries, it works wonderfully.
Speaker B:It's perfect.
Speaker B:But for photographers, it requires, I think the amount of effort that it requires is unreasonable and it leads to burnout.
Speaker B:And it doesn't feel good to our clients.
Speaker B:Because in order for a funnel to work, you have to be creating content at a volume that is unrealistic.
Speaker B:Like that attract phase.
Speaker B:You need to be like, big brands can do this because they have the budget and they have entire staffs, but you need to be out there posting every day, creating content every day.
Speaker B:Most photographers are solopreneurs.
Speaker B:You know, we're doing this by ourselves, so it's not like we have a marketing team.
Speaker B:So that that part up there gets really hard.
Speaker B:And then the message, because the.
Speaker B:Everything we're doing in a sales funnel is to get that sale, then the messaging that happens in the middle part of the funnel.
Speaker B:So what we're saying, how we're talking to people, the message ends up being all about the sale, that is in a disconnect, I think, from what we do as artists.
Speaker B:Because, yes, the sale's important, we're in business.
Speaker B:But if you think about.
Speaker B:You're working with people, these really intimate moments, you need people to trust you.
Speaker B:You need people to be able to open up to you.
Speaker B:And when everything that you're doing in your marketing is just like, sell, sell, sell, heavy, heavy, heavy, it turns a lot of people off.
Speaker B:And so the marketing funnel doesn't necessarily work for us.
Speaker B:So what I teach instead and what I use, what I believe is more of a flywheel method and it's client centered.
Speaker B:So instead of using my marketing to sell, I use my marketing to serve.
Speaker B:So all my marketing channels are really devoted to getting inside of my client's brain, answering their questions, alleviating their worries, meeting them where they are, educating them through the process, what they need to know.
Speaker B:Like, we're photographers, we do this every day, but our clients don't.
Speaker B:And they're nervous and they're worried.
Speaker B:And so if you can start talking to them through your marketing channels, it builds trust.
Speaker B:It sets you up to look like you're an expert at what you're doing.
Speaker B:It's a way to use marketing to create this relationship with somebody so that they do trust you, so that they do feel close.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:And then you make the sale.
Speaker B:And from the point of view of the small business, it feels a heck of a lot better than just trying to sell, sell, sell all the time.
Speaker B:And it's nicer for the client too.
Speaker B:And actually, if I may, I told you I was talker.
Speaker B:I have a story about this because something just happened in my studio this weekend that just proves this point.
Speaker B:So I had a client come in for a newborn session and we're doing our work and I always ask my people like, oh, how'd you find me?
Speaker B:And he was like, well, the husband was like, well, your website really sold you.
Speaker B:And he was like, every single thing you had written on your website were questions that we had and things that we were concerned about.
Speaker B:And he goes, it just made me feel like you really know your stuff.
Speaker B:And I could tell that you, you really are an expert at this and that we just trusted you.
Speaker B:And I was like, exactly.
Speaker B:And that is, that's the flywheel.
Speaker B:And the, the blog post, he mentioned one particular blog post in particular.
Speaker B:He, we were leaning towards you.
Speaker B:We were sold.
Speaker B:He's like, and then I read this one blog post and I was like, yeah, this is the photographer for us.
Speaker B:And the blog post that he mentioned was a blog post I had written six years ago.
Speaker B:And so that's the other part of this marketing that I love.
Speaker B:It's like unlike the sales funnel, where the sales funnel, you're creating content every day, you're having to do new content every day.
Speaker B:With a flywheel approach, you can create really strong client centered content and it will continue to work for you for years.
Speaker B:And so I don't, I mean, like, I blog maybe twice a year.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not posting to Instagram every day.
Speaker A:You had mentioned that in your seminar that you only blog, you know, twice a year, a couple times a year, and that fascinated me.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think once you get to a point where you've got enough of this content out there, and it is evergreen content that people can look at year over year over year, and it's answering the questions that are core to your business, then you don't necessarily have to keep beating them over the head with the same thing.
Speaker B:No, but you do have to establish it.
Speaker A:I still have to establish it, for sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, that's what I teach.
Speaker B:The clients I mentor is like.
Speaker B:Or the photographers I mentor.
Speaker B:It's like, get it going, get a consistent thing going.
Speaker B:So you have that library.
Speaker B:But then once it's going, that's the flywheel.
Speaker B:That's why you call it a flywheel, because then it just snowballs.
Speaker B:It just feeds itself.
Speaker A:It really does.
Speaker A:I think it's important to go back to the beginning of what you were saying about the traditional funnel, too, because a lot of what we see online as photographers are these.
Speaker A:You know, make $10,000 this month if you just follow this funnel.
Speaker A:And, you know, you can do $100,000 in two months if you just follow my extra course for $49.
Speaker A:And everything becomes this push towards a system.
Speaker A:The system is actually pushing people towards a system.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily anything.
Speaker A:They're just going to teach you how to build a funnel, which is the traditional market.
Speaker A:And if they do things in volume by fire, meaning they produce enough content, they've got enough money for ads, it's going to pop up.
Speaker A:Then it becomes part of our lexicon, part of our thing where, oh, God, everybody must be doing it that way, and they're not.
Speaker A:They're following that old traditional model.
Speaker A:And the folks that I see in this industry that are the most successful are not doing that at all.
Speaker A:They're the ones that are teaching the why.
Speaker A:They're the ones that are serving, rather than just being focused on these big sales, this big money, because those things are going to come anyway.
Speaker A:So for newer photographers or newer business owners, I think it's a really important thing to understand at this point in your business, which is everybody's going to sell you something, but you have to find out first, why are you in business?
Speaker A:And then once you have the answer to that, start working on material by following someone like you as to how to really refine it for your audience.
Speaker A:Do I have that generally correct Yeah, I think so.
Speaker B:I think that's spot on.
Speaker B:Like we're in a service industry and you know the, the brands like you were saying that use that, use funnels really well and then teach funnels that they're, they're in like business to business sales and that's a completely different market.
Speaker B:And I think you're right.
Speaker B:I think like when, a lot of times, like when you're reading business books or taking business classes, that's what you're learning is you're learning B2B marketing.
Speaker B:And we don't do that.
Speaker B:We are, we're service industry.
Speaker B:And so like learning, you have to, you have to, you have to learn an approach that's going to fit your models.
Speaker B:And I would say if someone's just starting this and just starting their business right now and they're hearing this and they're like, oh, this is blowing my mind or I want to do this.
Speaker B:Like the best thing you can do as a small business owner is get to know your clients.
Speaker B:Like, get to know your clients and get to know yourself.
Speaker B:Like I always tell people, like, you have to figure out what it is you do.
Speaker B:Like, what do you do?
Speaker B:Not like I'm a newborn photographer, but what is your take on that genre?
Speaker B:Like what do you bring to what you do?
Speaker B:And then who are your clients?
Speaker B:And then in the middle of that Venn diagram is, is, is where your, your marketing gold, the marketing magic lives.
Speaker B:And then you kind of figure that out and there's systems to learn that like we can, I can teach you how to do that, but that's it.
Speaker A:Well, that's really where I was going to go is like, let's unpack that just a little bit, right?
Speaker A:Because if I am a brand new photographer, I might not even have clients yet.
Speaker A:So how do I, how do I do this?
Speaker A:How do I get the clients that are going to most resonate with why I am doing my photography?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We'll just go with newborns, right?
Speaker A:So if, if you're a newborn photographer and you don't have any clients yet, you still have to know yourself and know your why and your process and how you want to serve this client.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You still have to know that stuff and that will evolve over time.
Speaker A:But what do you say to someone that wants to start writing their marketing copy if they don't even have clients yet?
Speaker A:How's the best way to approach that?
Speaker B:I'm so glad you asked that because that's like one of my favorite things to talk about.
Speaker B:So I just see My mic, I got all excited.
Speaker B:I was like, no, that's great.
Speaker A:I'm just going to sit back.
Speaker A:I'll talk to you in an hour, like Marcus Silva.
Speaker B:So you have to start with the work.
Speaker B:So I, I teach.
Speaker B:I always tell photographers, like, what's really interesting about what we do and what's unique to our industry is that there is just not one way to market.
Speaker B:So in other industries and other businesses, when people talk about marketing, they usually talk about marketing copy and the words that you're using when you're talking about your brand.
Speaker B:For photographers, we market in two ways.
Speaker B:We market with our work and with our words.
Speaker B:And those two things have to be in alignment.
Speaker B:And so to really nail your marketing, you have to start with your work.
Speaker B:And that means really looking at, at the very beginning, what do you do?
Speaker B:What are, what are the unique things?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I tell people, I say this at every single talk I ever give about this.
Speaker B:It's like you're the only person in the entire world who can see something and capture something the way that you see it and you capture it, which I think is amazing.
Speaker B:Like, that just kind of blows my mind.
Speaker B:That's why you can be at a conference like WPBI or whatever, you can be in a room with a hundred other photographers and everybody can be photographing the same thing, and nobody is going to create the exact same shot.
Speaker B:It's impossible.
Speaker B:That's probably why we get inspired to pick up our camera in the first place, because there's a certain way that we see the world.
Speaker B:There's something that we're drawn to, things that we are inspired to do.
Speaker B:But for some reason, as soon as we start charging for our services, we are so quick to throw all of that under the bus and we get into, like, what's going to sell, which is because of the funnel, but what's going to sell?
Speaker B:What do people want?
Speaker B:What is popular, what is on trend?
Speaker B:And we completely lose sight of what, like, our creativity is.
Speaker B:And then it becomes really hard to market because you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker B:You don't know how to describe it to people.
Speaker B:You don't know what to show because you're just chasing trends and trying to be like everybody else and it changes the value.
Speaker B:So instead of being unique and interesting, you become one of many.
Speaker B:And when you're one of many, then the only thing people have to compare you on is pricing, which is a race to the bottom.
Speaker B:So if you're just starting focus on what it is you do and Be brave enough to do it.
Speaker B:So, for example, I'm a newborn photographer.
Speaker B:I work in studio.
Speaker B:I work with.
Speaker B:With lighting, like artificial lighting, but my work does not look like any of those things.
Speaker B:I work in a studio, but I don't do traditional newborn posing because I don't want to.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker B:I don't want to do it.
Speaker B:I use lighting almost exclusively, but I actually don't like the way studio lighting looks most of the time.
Speaker B:So I use lighting in a way that looks like, natural.
Speaker A:It's very natural.
Speaker B:I still choose.
Speaker B:It's very natural.
Speaker B:I still shoot on film because, I don't know, I'm kind of lazy and I don't want to do things in post production.
Speaker B:I just want to do it in camera the way the Lord intended and have it done.
Speaker B:So there's all these little pieces that make my brand really unique.
Speaker B:So I can say I'm a newborn photographer, but what I do are all these little pieces that make me stand out and that make me different.
Speaker B:And knowing that, then I can start using my marketing to build that.
Speaker B:So at the very beginning, if you're really crystal clear on what it is that you do, then you can start thinking, even if you're imagining it, like, okay, well, given what I do, my vision, my voice, my artistic interpretation of my genre, what kind of person would want that?
Speaker B:So the kind of person who's going to come to me is going to be somebody who doesn't want traditional newborn posing, who doesn't want, like, elaborate raps, who doesn't want this.
Speaker B:They want something a little.
Speaker B:A little more natural, but they also want, you know, a timeless look of studio.
Speaker B:They're probably people who are really into minimalism, because I am, I just like, no backdrop, nothing in the way.
Speaker B:I just want a baby on a bed and just photograph that, you know?
Speaker B:So, like, you start aligning like, okay, what are, what are my core values?
Speaker B:What do I show in my work?
Speaker B:And then, you know, okay, well, a person who's going to come to me is going to want those things and you write that out.
Speaker B:And I coach people to, like, literally write it out.
Speaker B:Like, take the time, write it out, write a description, give it a name, and then every time you're sitting down to write marketing copy, you're doing it as if you're talking to that person and speaking directly to them.
Speaker B:But it has to start with your work.
Speaker A:And I think in there is the big scary monster for most people, which is, oh, I have to look inside and know what I want and let go of what other people are thinking about me or could think about me.
Speaker A:And what are other photographers going to think?
Speaker A:And is there really a possibility that I can get paid for this?
Speaker A:But I have to say the right things because all these other people out here told me to say these things to get clients.
Speaker A:So as you were doing this 26 years ago, as you started looking back, is there anything that you had to unlearn?
Speaker A:As you started doing this type of marketing, were there any old habits?
Speaker A:Was there anything you needed to unlearn in order to find that version of yourself that felt real and authentic?
Speaker A:And this is the person that I want to be.
Speaker B:Oh my God, 100%.
Speaker B:I always say that running a business, being a full time photographer and being in business for yourself is like being in therapy 24, 7, because it's going to make you confront things, blocks things about yourself, fears that you have, limiting beliefs that you have and it's going to put it right in your face.
Speaker B:And you have a choice over and over again to like, look at it and address it and overcome it or stay stuck.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And honestly, that's the gift, I think, of entrepreneurship.
Speaker B:I think that's also the craziness.
Speaker B:Like all of us that do this, we're kind of insane.
Speaker B:Sometimes I'm like, I could just get a job and like dial it in and not have to do all of this and that it's also like the growth part of it.
Speaker B:So like, absolutely.
Speaker B:I had to overcome so many fears around worthiness, around trusting myself, around money, around my money blocks, like being able to ask for money, being able to put a price tag on something.
Speaker B:I mean, the imposter syndrome was so real.
Speaker B:I'm self taught.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people are, but I was a kindergarten teacher who just like, was like, oh, I'm going to take pictures on the side.
Speaker B:Even my lighting system, you know, I developed the way I use my lights because I wanted light that looked a certain way.
Speaker B:I never had a thousand years thought I would be writing books about it or standing on stages teaching other people about it.
Speaker B:It was just like what I do.
Speaker B:And the Internet loves to tell me I do it wrong, but it works for me, so whatever.
Speaker B:So you have to get to that point where you really do just trust yourself and that you're willing to figure out what it is you do and be able to do it.
Speaker B:Even though you're terrified because you're right, it's hard to be different.
Speaker B:And if you're like, well, I want to do this thing, but everybody else is doing this thing, and they look like they're being successful at it.
Speaker B:So if I this thing, maybe no one's going to want it.
Speaker B:And that's really scary.
Speaker A:Did going through this process as you learned to light differently?
Speaker A:What I mean by differently is core to who you are, right?
Speaker A:Bucking the system of you have to do this, traditional lighting methods, right?
Speaker A:You come up with lighting that is good for your business.
Speaker A:You come up with a style that is good for your business.
Speaker A:Did it shift the way that you looked at your own work?
Speaker A:Did you start to fall in love with it, with it more?
Speaker A:Or did you realize, oh, I'm.
Speaker A:I got something that can sell.
Speaker A:Let me run with this product?
Speaker B:Yeah, I totally fell in love with it.
Speaker B:And it's really interesting, too, if we talk about, like, the journey of being a creator, being an entrepreneur.
Speaker B:I only came to my style when I was at the point where I was going to burn it all down, because I did what everybody else does.
Speaker B:And I did spend the first, like, eight years of my career trying to be like everybody else, trying to do what the popular people are doing.
Speaker B:You know, I just wanted to get clients.
Speaker B:I just want to get paid.
Speaker B:And I would.
Speaker B:I'd like, I'll shoot anything.
Speaker B:I'll shoot your dog and your house and your wedding and your baby.
Speaker B:Like, I was just, like, it was so desperate.
Speaker B:It wasn't working.
Speaker B:It wasn't working.
Speaker B:It wasn't working.
Speaker B:And it got to the point where I was like, this isn't working.
Speaker B:Like, I guess I'm just not cut out for this.
Speaker B:And I was just kind of this, like, surrender moment.
Speaker B:I'm like, fine, if it's not going to work, that I'm at least just going to do what I want to do and just give up trying to make it work.
Speaker B:And I'm just going to shoot the way I want to shoot.
Speaker B:I'm going to show up the way I want to show up.
Speaker B:I'm just going to do what I want to do and just, like, I want to say, fuck it, you know, like, just like, I'm done.
Speaker B:And that's when things shifted, because the more I leaned in to that, then people started to notice because my work didn't look like everybody else's all of a sudden.
Speaker B:And there was a niche, and that was such a learning.
Speaker B:I was gonna say, moment.
Speaker B:It was a period of several years where I was going through that and learning that.
Speaker B:But now I love that I'm at a place where I can share that with other photographers so they don't have to go through all the pain that I went through.
Speaker B:And now at this point, 26 years in and, you know, I've coached hundreds of photographers.
Speaker B:I've taken so many people on this journey.
Speaker B:I am convinced that no matter what it is you do, whatever what your niche is, no matter like, if you were like, okay, Sandra, I am really passionate about felting small woodland creatures and then making fairy furniture for them and then just photographing my little felted woodland creatures and that's what I want to do, I'd be like, freaking go for it.
Speaker B:Because there's somebody out there right now searching on the Internet for exactly that.
Speaker B:Like, I really, really, really believe that.
Speaker B:Like, no matter what it is you do, no matter how crazy you think it is or how nice you think it is, there is somebody out there looking for it.
Speaker B:Like, we're a planet of 8 billion people.
Speaker B:Lean into it.
Speaker B:And the more you can lean into it and do it fearlessly because it's really scary, the more successful you're going to be.
Speaker B:And I believe that in my core.
Speaker A:When I get into these conversations with other photographers or other artists, right.
Speaker A:I, most of my friends are photographers, but I like to think in a wider creative sense.
Speaker A:And you know, I have a lot of artist friends and the conversations that I get into, we often feel like the art that we produce, whatever it is, our writing, our photography, isn't anything special.
Speaker A:It's competitive, but it ain't special.
Speaker A:So there's a lot of doubt that creeps into the mind about, I can't set myself apart because the work's not that good.
Speaker A:I know I'm not that good of a photographer.
Speaker A:I'm serviceable, but I'm mediocre.
Speaker A:I am not producing award winning work.
Speaker A:So all this doubt creeps in from, again, thinking about what other people think of us.
Speaker A:Were there any moments where you really doubted and what was the sign that showed you you were on the right path?
Speaker B:Oh, I, I still worry about that.
Speaker B:I think that's part of the creative process.
Speaker B:But moments where it has really stuck out was one of the big turning points for me in my career as an educator came when I was asked to do creative lives.
Speaker B:Like back creative live was like the thing, right?
Speaker A:The thing, yeah.
Speaker B:And I was asked to come in and met with Arlene, who I love, we all love Arlene.
Speaker B:And they booked me for an entire week of classes.
Speaker B:And I, you know, up until that point, like I, I had done some speaking on stages like at Click Away or whatever.
Speaker B:But I still thought of myself as just like my little student studio and doing my little thing and nothing makes sense.
Speaker B:And suddenly I was going to be on Creative Live on that platform and they wanted me to teach lighting for film photographers.
Speaker B:And you know, the Internet was telling me I was doing it wrong and all this stuff.
Speaker B:And I was driving to the studio, I had to be at the studio at like 6am and I was driving to the studio, it was like 5:30am and I was like in complete mental breakdown.
Speaker B:I was like, there is this, there is no way I am.
Speaker B:They're gonna.
Speaker B:I'm gonna get on that stage and everybody's gonna know I don't know what I'm talking about and that I'm not good enough and that my work is like, meh, and you know, my lighting is boring or whatever.
Speaker B:And that, that was very much a moment of like, what am I doing?
Speaker B:Like, extreme doubt.
Speaker B:What I found though, and that was, that was hard.
Speaker B:And the staff there luckily works with a lot of artists that go into meltdown before.
Speaker B:Like, there's so, so many.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're like, you're fine.
Speaker B:This is totally normal.
Speaker B:Which, which is nice though.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I go through that, I still go through that.
Speaker B:And I think, I think that that's normal again.
Speaker B:It's just like requiring a tremendous amount of trust in yourself and as your vision.
Speaker B:I mean, we're artists.
Speaker B:Like, if you're an artist, like what you create is just what you create.
Speaker B:It's your vision of like what you're called to do that there can't be a right or wrong to that.
Speaker B:I mean, there's technical things you can learn so that you can, you can create your vision consistently and you know, at a, at a level that meets your expectations.
Speaker B:But I don't know.
Speaker B:Did that answer your question?
Speaker A:It does, you know, and to answer that, you know, you gotta know the rules to be able to break them.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:There are, there are standards that I think anyone that takes whatever their craft is seriously, there is some base level of knowledge that you have to have before you can say, well, I'm a non traditional artist.
Speaker A:Like, hold on a second.
Speaker A:Like, do you know any of the tradition at all?
Speaker A:I think the thing that I love about talking to you as someone that's been in the industry for a while, you've got this wonderful confidence about you.
Speaker A:Where you've been through this, you come out the other side, you've got all this experience and all this knowledge.
Speaker A:It's the wisdom that you carry year over year over year.
Speaker A:What are you seeing in your work now that you wouldn't have seen in your work when you were younger based on all of that wisdom and experience?
Speaker B:Wow, that's a great question.
Speaker B:I think what I see in my work now, the biggest difference between my work now and when I started is this sense of trust and just knowing I can do it.
Speaker B:Actually, it's really interesting because I recently got an aura ring, you know, those track and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And I've only had it a week, but I was wearing it when I was working with clients.
Speaker B:I had two newborn clients last week.
Speaker B:And it gives you data, right?
Speaker B:So I was looking at, like, my stress levels after my newborn sessions.
Speaker B:And at both newborn sessions, my heart rate went down into, like, deep relaxation and then into, like, this restorative mode.
Speaker B:And it was fascinating to me because I feel like what I have now that I didn't used to have is this, like, deep knowing that I'm really good at what I do and I know exactly how to do it.
Speaker B:And it's just like muscle memory.
Speaker B:And so I start working with clients and I just get into this flow state.
Speaker B:And it was really validating to see that reflected in actual data.
Speaker B:So I definitely wasn't there at the beginning of my year.
Speaker B:Things felt scary and hectic, and I would get nervous before every session and all of that.
Speaker B:And now I'm like, now I go into, like, full restorative, low state.
Speaker A:And that's the thing we always talk about flow state.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's where we want to get to athletes and artists and business people.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:We want to get to this flow state.
Speaker A:But it's this mythical land.
Speaker A:Are we there or not?
Speaker A:And you never really know until you come out of it.
Speaker A:You're like, man, I just crushed that.
Speaker A:I don't remember anything I just said, but I crushed it.
Speaker A:I was flowing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And to be able to have that data shows you that you go into this very Zen meditative state.
Speaker A:It shows that you trust yourselves.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You're very comfortable with where you are.
Speaker A:That's gotta come through with the connections that you're making to these families.
Speaker A:That's gotta free up all this mental energy to be able to spend time focusing on them and their child.
Speaker A:Have you seen your ability to connect?
Speaker A:Because clearly you're easy to connect with.
Speaker A:But have you found that with these families that maybe you don't know very well?
Speaker A:Can you connect with them at a deeper level?
Speaker A:Because you're.
Speaker A:You're not worried about, oh, my God, what are my lights doing?
Speaker A:What's my camera doing?
Speaker A:Do I have film right?
Speaker A:Is the COVID on?
Speaker A:Is all that stuff gone?
Speaker A:And does that make your connections with these families more connected in the moment?
Speaker B:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker B:And actually, that's part of what I teach the people that I mentor.
Speaker B:Because what I've learned is that flow state is something you can learn and you can activate.
Speaker B:I call it having consistent, predictable routines.
Speaker B:And the importance of consistent, predictable routines.
Speaker B:So I learned that when I was a teacher in teacher school.
Speaker B:And the whole idea of consistent, predictable routines in a classroom is that you do the same thing in the same order every day.
Speaker B:And then the children learn what's expected.
Speaker B:They know, they come in, they hang up their coats, they sit down, they pull out their journals, whatever the routine is.
Speaker B:And what that does is it lowers stress because the brain's not trying to predict what's coming next.
Speaker B:That is something that I did take with me into my photography career because I was like, if I taught kindergarten, I was like, if it works for kindergarten, it's going to work for me.
Speaker B:And so from a very early, very early in my career, I was like, consistent, predictable routines.
Speaker B:And so what that looks like for me is I have a lighting system that I do in the exact same way every single session.
Speaker B:I have closing flow.
Speaker B:I have a system where I start with this every single time, then we go to this, then we go to this, then we go to this.
Speaker B:Even the things that I say to my clients when they walk through the door, I'm doing the same routine every time.
Speaker B:And like I said, this is I.
Speaker B:This is something I teach the photographers I mentor how to do.
Speaker B:Like create systems, intentional systems in your business and in your posing and with your lighting, for that very reason.
Speaker B:Because once it becomes muscle memory, once you really learn it and you just do it, then your body just goes into autopilot.
Speaker B:You can just do it without even thinking it.
Speaker B:And you know that you're going to get results.
Speaker B:And then what that does is it frees your.
Speaker B:The rest of your consciousness to be able to connect to the people you're photographing.
Speaker B:So to answer your question, like, as far as connection with my.
Speaker B:My families, absolutely.
Speaker B:So I'm not thinking.
Speaker B:My brain's not spending all this time thinking, like, oh, what's my light doing?
Speaker B:Is it set right?
Speaker B:Do I have the right settings?
Speaker B:What am I going to do next?
Speaker B:Like, how can I be the most creative?
Speaker B:Like, where, how am I going to pose them?
Speaker B:What am I going to say to Them.
Speaker B:All of that's just muscle memory.
Speaker B:I'm just doing it.
Speaker B:So instead my brain is able to really look at somebody, read their body language.
Speaker B:Are they comfortable right now or are they feeling a little bit nervous?
Speaker B:Why don't we talk to them?
Speaker B:How can I help them relax into this?
Speaker B:How can I help this baby settle up?
Speaker B:The baby unsettled, like, so it's, it's a really powerful practice and I encourage everybody to create those kind of routines.
Speaker B:And I know, I know the pushback is, oh, but I'm, you know, I won't be as creative if I'm doing the same thing in the order at the same time.
Speaker B:And it's like, no, that's not true.
Speaker B:You're going to be more creative.
Speaker B:Like, trust me on this.
Speaker A:When you get to the point of unconscious competence with your craft, it frees up so much of that, that mental energy.
Speaker A:That's all that kept coming back to me was unconscious competence.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because you have to work through these stages where you have no idea what you're doing.
Speaker A:And then you're kind of good at it, but you're still a little bit worried.
Speaker A:And then that, that fear and anxiety starts to allay.
Speaker A:And now you kind of enter this place, the flow state, right, where it's just, you know, what you're doing.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean that it has to be boring or systematized so that all feeling is gone from it.
Speaker A:It just needs to be repeatable so that you're not worried about the minutiae.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, you've got all that handled.
Speaker A:You've been a teacher forever.
Speaker A:What's the one thing that you try to give your students that no one gave you when you were, when you were coming up?
Speaker B:Well, I, I, I was really naive.
Speaker B:Starting my photography journey, I didn't realize that there was a whole industry.
Speaker B:Like, I know that sounds silly.
Speaker B:It's kind of, it doesn't say out loud, but like, I didn't know that.
Speaker B:I just was like, I just have this camera.
Speaker B:I'm just doing this on the side.
Speaker B:I just, like, hustled.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't realize the infrastructure.
Speaker B:So I didn't, I didn't seek out mentors, I didn't seek out classes, I didn't seek out learning.
Speaker B:I felt very isolated and I think that I could have progressed much quicker, in a much healthier way mentally if I had had all of that.
Speaker B:And so what I always so impressed with the students who are in my classes or come to my talks or who are at conferences.
Speaker B:Or whatever that like good for you.
Speaker B:Or like I see it like as self care, like realizing that you don't have to do this alone.
Speaker B:There are people who've, who have done it before you, who are willing and able and wanting to help you.
Speaker B:And like, how amazing is that?
Speaker B:And I have like a zero gatekeeping philosophy rule, you know, in my life where I'm not somebody who's cageier, who's gonna just give you a little piece of information.
Speaker B:It's like, I'll tell you whatever you want.
Speaker B:You wanna talk about numbers?
Speaker B:Let's talk about numbers.
Speaker B:I'll tell you exactly what I charge, exactly what I make.
Speaker B:Like, I don't at this point in my career and in my life, it's like I have literally nothing to hide and I would much rather just share all that information with somebody and help them get there faster.
Speaker B:And God, I wish I would have had that.
Speaker B:And I probably could have if I'd known to look for it and also not been afraid to ask for it.
Speaker B:I think sometimes people, there's almost like a little bit of shame in learning from other people or asking from somebody because they're like, oh, I should have this figured out or I should know it and just let that go and just get help if you need help.
Speaker B:Even if you don't think you need help, get help, because you probably should.
Speaker A:There, there ain't a single person that doesn't need help.
Speaker A:Olympic athletes need coaches.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you've been teaching year over year.
Speaker A:What's one of the things that you hope that your students carry with them over the years?
Speaker A:If there's one thing that they pull from it, from all of your courses and all of your teaching, what's kind of the one core principle that you hope they retain out of all of it?
Speaker B:Well, what I really hope people learn from me is that whatever it is that they do, what they think are called to do, like their vision, their version of creativity, that thing that they do, that they realize that they're called to it for a reason.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like it is their unique way of seeing the world and, and if they're called to share it, like that's not an accident.
Speaker B:And to really have faith in your vision and your voice as an artist and in yourself and, you know, be brave enough to share it with the world, that's really what I really hope people walk away from that.
Speaker B:And I can teach you all the things around it.
Speaker B:I can teach you to create the kind of light you want.
Speaker B:I can teach you how to create consistent Predictable routines.
Speaker B:I can teach you business and marketing and stuff, but the thing that I can't teach you is your gift.
Speaker B:And figure that out in yourself and trust it.
Speaker A:It's the battle, right?
Speaker A:No matter how long you're in business, no matter how long you're doing this for yourself, if you're just starting out, if you've been in it for 50 years, there is never a day.
Speaker A:I don't recall a day.
Speaker A:I've been doing this 13 years now.
Speaker A:I don't remember a day where I didn't doubt myself, where I didn't want to throw it all in and just go get a job at Subway.
Speaker A:Like there isn't a single day that goes by.
Speaker A:It's just like, I wish I had better benefits.
Speaker A:I wish I had my 401k back.
Speaker A:Like all these things, right?
Speaker A:Maybe not necessarily.
Speaker B:You said Subway because I always say to my husband, like, that's it, I'm bringing it down and I'm going to get a job at Starbucks.
Speaker B:So my go to is same thing.
Speaker A:East coast, west coast.
Speaker A:Let's move a little bit into story.
Speaker A:Because your work, and I'm.
Speaker A:There's zero disrespect when I say that your work is very simple.
Speaker A:You go about things very simply, but it still imparts a ton of story.
Speaker A:When you're going into a shoot, no matter how many times you've done this, how do you approach your storytelling with that client?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Every baby's a little bit different.
Speaker A:How do you approach the storytelling?
Speaker B:That's a really good question.
Speaker B:Because my work is very, very simple.
Speaker B:It's very stripped down, it's very minimal and intentionally.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:But I also feel like it is emotive in some way.
Speaker B:And I think that is kind of the beauty, the artistry and the trick of being a portrait photographer in particular.
Speaker B:Like, I think portrait photographers have a little bit of magic, right?
Speaker B:Where they can just set somebody in front of a gray backdrop and have it be compelling.
Speaker B:I think it has partly.
Speaker B:I think it has something to do with being in that flow state where I'm not worried, I'm not overthinking the process.
Speaker B:Like, I know what I'm going to ask people to do and how I'm going to line them on the steps.
Speaker B:I can really connect to people and I'm a people person.
Speaker B:I'm actually really curious about people.
Speaker B:And so I think I pull that out and I feel like I do that work.
Speaker B:This sounds a little woo.
Speaker B:Sounds a little woo woo.
Speaker B:But I work with newborns.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it's not like I'm like, so tell me about yourself, you know, two day old baby.
Speaker B:But I feel like it's the same process with newborns because I really, you know, I feel like people are born who they are and I can, I like tapping into who they are.
Speaker B:Even at a 2 as a 2 year old.
Speaker B:Like I always say, like I'm doing the same thing whether you're eight days old, eight years old or 80 years old.
Speaker B:Like I'm trying to see who your spirit is and capture that.
Speaker B:I don't know how I do it.
Speaker A:Do you find that you have to slow down to do that?
Speaker A:And does film shooting film afford you or force you to slow down to that degree?
Speaker A:Has that contributed to that, that zen like state that flow, knowing that you only have so many exposures?
Speaker B:Oh, 100%.
Speaker B:Like I have 16 exposures on a roll of medium format film and it costs like the price of like a latte every time I hit the shutter.
Speaker B:So I always laugh with my, with my clients and say I'm like a wildlife photographer because I can get everything set up and then just am.
Speaker B:I just am there with my camera, just like waiting and watching.
Speaker B:So a lot of what I do is this anticipation and waiting and watching and slowing down.
Speaker B:And part of that is inherent in the fact that I do shoot with film.
Speaker B:It makes me do that and I appreciate that.
Speaker B:But I will say even when I am shooting digitally because sometimes I do.
Speaker B:I injured my arm this year and Hasselblad's really heavy and I was like, I can't shoot the Hasselblad.
Speaker B:So I was like, I'm going to use my mirrorless camera.
Speaker B:But I do the same thing.
Speaker B:I try to like just like really slow down and breathe.
Speaker B:Really wait for it, really see, really position.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And yeah, well, and clearly it's like a meditative experience for me because I have now proof I'm not worried.
Speaker B:I get very relaxed when I'm doing it.
Speaker B:So I do think like, especially with like newborns, there's a sense of really having to smell.
Speaker B:And also babies feel that like if you want to talk, like energy stuff, like babies are like horses and they will smell fear.
Speaker B:Like they know if you're anxious, they know if you're afraid of them, they know all that stuff and they will react.
Speaker B:And so if you come in and your energy is grounded and calm, the baby's going to react to that.
Speaker B:The baby's going to be grounded and calm.
Speaker B:As a, as a result, I think.
Speaker A:You just Came up with the title of the episode, which is Babies are like Horses.
Speaker A:So you mentioned something in there in terms of slowing down.
Speaker A:One of my favorite movies ever is the Secret Life of Walter Mitte.
Speaker A:And he goes, that movie, right?
Speaker A:The newer version, the Ben Stiller version.
Speaker B:So good.
Speaker A:He's chasing Sean Penn around the world.
Speaker A:Sean McDonough, right, he's chasing around the world.
Speaker A:Finally finds him in the Himalayas.
Speaker A:And Sean Penn is taking this picture of this snow leopard or is waiting for the snow leopard.
Speaker A:He's just sitting there and waiting.
Speaker A:Clearly he's just been waiting there for hours and hours and hours.
Speaker A:And then he sees it and then he doesn't take the picture because he just believes that you need to be in the moment.
Speaker A:Has there been anything like that where you've just been in the moment, about to press your latte price shutter and gone?
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:This is just too beautiful.
Speaker A:I need to be here in this minute.
Speaker A:Is there anything like that that you've done in a session?
Speaker B:Oh, definitely.
Speaker B:I've had a lot of really, really beautiful sessions.
Speaker B:But there's always this one session that sticks out in my brain.
Speaker B:It was a newborn session, newborn family, and the dad had just found out that he had brain cancer.
Speaker B:Like, little born brain cancer.
Speaker B:And so there was a.
Speaker B:Like, I get kind of like.
Speaker B:So there was a lot of moments in the that session where I was like, this is their moment.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:And like still making sure I was creating images because I knew that the.
Speaker B:I mean, anytime I take an image, I knew it's going to be an heirloom image, but I knew this one going into it.
Speaker B:Like, this is the memory that this child is going to have.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But also there was a couple times in that where I was like, I'm going to just walk out of the room and I'm just going to let you guys have some time and then we're going to come back to it.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was rough, but yeah.
Speaker B:And there are also things that happen sometimes on a shoot because I am shooting film.
Speaker B:Like, I have built in breaks.
Speaker B:I'm changing out a role, you know, so there are things that are magical and baby sleep, smiling or whatever.
Speaker B:And it's like I'm in the middle of changing my role and I missed it.
Speaker B:And also just trusting, like, it's okay if I missed that moment because there's going to be lots of beautiful moments and we don't have to rush.
Speaker B:That's the big thing.
Speaker B:It's like when I first started, I started with film and then I went to digital, when everybody went to digital.
Speaker B:And it really changed the way that I shoot because I felt so obligated to take every single set, every.
Speaker B:Every look, every everything.
Speaker B:And so people would come in, I would just like, go, go, go, go, go.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:It made the entire session feel frantic, you know?
Speaker B:And now just to be able to trust, like, you know, I'm gonna let that go.
Speaker B:It's okay if I miss that, because there's gonna be another one.
Speaker B:I don't have to chase this child around with this camera.
Speaker B:Like, it's fine.
Speaker B:We wouldn't come back to it.
Speaker B:It changes that energy for sure.
Speaker A:Why are we afraid of missing a moment when we're at a.
Speaker A:When I go to conferences, I don't take a lot of photos because I don't like the paparazzi around a model's booth or whatever's being shot.
Speaker A:I don't like shooting like that.
Speaker A:It's just not germane to who I am.
Speaker A:So I don't do it.
Speaker A:I think we often, especially when we're not as confident in our skills, do that.
Speaker A:Spray and pray.
Speaker A:Because I might miss a moment.
Speaker A:I might miss that one thing, and I've got to get the shot before the guy next to me gets the shot.
Speaker A:I need to get the shot.
Speaker A:When we're thinking like that, we're not in the flow of trusting ourselves, knowing when that right moment is and capturing the look that is true to who we are.
Speaker A:We're just capturing stuff and then sorting through it and saying, yeah, I can kind of see my voice in that.
Speaker A:One of the things that I've always battled is shooting too fast as a people pleaser.
Speaker A:I want to get people in and out.
Speaker A:Look, I'm trying to give them my craft, give them as much variety as possible.
Speaker A:Do you ever feel there are certain shots that maybe are signature shots or things that you want to get?
Speaker A:Do you ever feel time crunched and, wow, I've got to get this shot before I leave here?
Speaker A:Or do you really let the universe kind of dictate how the day goes, and you just follow your consistent, repeatable process, and whatever comes of it, comes of it.
Speaker A:I might be answering my own question here.
Speaker B:As I said, you are like, you just nailed it.
Speaker B:It's like I do the exact same thing in the same order every single time.
Speaker B:Like, I start with the baby, baby on the bed.
Speaker B:I do different things with the baby.
Speaker B:Then I bring in mom.
Speaker B:Then I bring a dad.
Speaker B:We do family.
Speaker B:Then mom leaves.
Speaker B:I cheat with dad, and then we're done.
Speaker B:So like, it's very efficient and I don't ever worry that I'm missing shots because I've already built it in.
Speaker B:Every once in a while I'll get something that was like, oh, this little sweet special moment happened in between.
Speaker B:But I like, I know what I'm going to get.
Speaker B:I get it every single shoot.
Speaker B:And my newborn set, like newborn sessions, even when we're taking time for feeding or whatever, rarely go over an hour.
Speaker B:My people are, are in and out.
Speaker B:That's the beauty of consistent, predictable routines.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:You may have just gotten yourself a new student.
Speaker A:As I work through my four or five hour session, other than the fact that I know that there's a baby present on set, I know very little about newborn photography and sometimes I don't even know if the baby needs to be there.
Speaker A:So in newborn photography, are there any rites of passage that you learned kind of getting into it that you hear someone go through?
Speaker A:You're like, oh yeah, now you're a newborn photographer.
Speaker A:Is there any sort of rite of passage in the, in the newborn photographer communities?
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:I think that there's getting comfortable with babies, like getting comfortable like holding somebody else's baby.
Speaker B:And you know, I don't know, like, I think that that's definitely part of it.
Speaker B:Being able to anticipate things, knowing things, knowing how babies work and, and like, you know, function.
Speaker B:It's really funny because at this point I know, like, I have no idea.
Speaker B:It's like, I mean, it's certainly something.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm a mother and so.
Speaker B:But I've also been a newborn photographer for 26 years.
Speaker B:So, you know, a lot of times I'm like, I don't know if it's.
Speaker A:You know, puke on the lens or loud.
Speaker B:Oh, I've had babies like projectile poop all over my lights.
Speaker B:And me.
Speaker B:And I go to work and I just wear T shirts and go in there.
Speaker A:Asthma.
Speaker B:I always joke.
Speaker B:I'm like, I get keyed on at work probably more than most people.
Speaker B:So I mean, like, things like that.
Speaker B:No, it's fun.
Speaker B:Like, I love working with babies.
Speaker A:It's a far.
Speaker A:I don't have children.
Speaker A:It's a foreign world to me.
Speaker A:And it gives me more than a little bit of anxiety to think about wandering into that situation.
Speaker A:I have a hard enough time dealing with adults, never mind not getting any verbal feedback from the thing in front of me, like, talk to me, baby, like, I need to know where you're at.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I haven't learned that yet in the eight days on this planet.
Speaker A:Okay, well, I'll give you a pass.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Thinking about all of this, I want to come back to connection.
Speaker A:It's something that I'm hearing more and more people talk about.
Speaker A:I've developed classes on connection.
Speaker A:I've written books, ebooks on connection.
Speaker A:We're going to talk about your new book in a second.
Speaker A:But I've written ebooks on human connection.
Speaker A:I've read as much as I can.
Speaker A:I've also done all the therapy and all the research into myself, knowing how it works for my business.
Speaker A:When you're thinking about connection and what it's meant to you over the years, what's the single greatest thing that has come from you making connections with these families over the years?
Speaker A:Do you see it immediately?
Speaker A:Do you get it years later?
Speaker A:Where do you find that that connection is most potent?
Speaker B:That is a good question.
Speaker B:There's so many good at asking questions.
Speaker B:I love my job and I love my clients, and I have clients who've come to me when they're pregnant with their first baby and have remained my clients until that baby has graduated from high school.
Speaker B:Like, I literally watch families and children grow up before me.
Speaker B:I had it.
Speaker B:I had a session last year.
Speaker B:A man came in with his wife and baby, who I had been photographing since he was like.
Speaker B:Or like.
Speaker B:And then he's coming to me with his whole baby.
Speaker B:And at first I was like, this can't be right.
Speaker B:I was like, is this your child bride?
Speaker B:And you know, like, what's.
Speaker B:What's going on here?
Speaker B:And like.
Speaker B:And he's like, I'm 31.
Speaker B:And I was like, stop it.
Speaker B:Like, that's not.
Speaker B:Wait, so that's even happened now where I can say, I've been doing this long enough.
Speaker B:Where I've.
Speaker B:I'm now on the second generation, which is weird, but awesome.
Speaker B:So I think that's the.
Speaker B:My favorite part is, like, people come in and we connect, and now we're together on this, like, whole journey.
Speaker B:And I document their family's entire life, which is so cool.
Speaker A:Do you have one magic phrase that kind of gets you over the hump with people that aren't necessarily as connected to you at the beginning?
Speaker A:Because every now and again, you run into these clients that no matter what you're doing, they're giving you nothing back.
Speaker A:And I'm not talking about the child laying there.
Speaker A:More than that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is there anything that you've learned to say to either, break the ice, get over the hump.
Speaker A:Just get that thing going.
Speaker A:Or is part of your process so forthcoming that by the time you get in front of them, they already kind of know how you work and you've worked out the personalities?
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I don't have like a phrase, but I do think, like circling back to the beginning of our conversation, that's where that flywheel marketing approach comes in.
Speaker B:Because, like, I do so much of my client nurturing and client prep through my marketing channels.
Speaker B:So by the time they're walking through my door, they know me, they know my philosophy, they know what they can expect, they know everything.
Speaker B:So most of my clients come in feeling like I've even had people like, oh, I feel like I already know you.
Speaker B:I feel like we've already met because I've used my marketing channels to nurture and to prep like that.
Speaker B:Do I make an immediate connection with everybody?
Speaker B:No, of course not.
Speaker B:But I think also I'm really good at my job.
Speaker B:And so even if people are like, nervous as soon as, like, I come in and I'm like, why don't you just hand me that baby?
Speaker B:And then, you know, I have the baby asleep and happy in two seconds and they're like, we haven't had the baby sleep in four days, you know, or whatever they can.
Speaker B:They begin to trust me and we go from there.
Speaker A:I want to push back.
Speaker A:I think that you have made connection with them.
Speaker A:You wouldn't be working for them if you hadn't made that connection through your website, through your marketing, through all the verbiage that you use.
Speaker A:And just being you, we often eschew that side of connection.
Speaker A:But you're there and you were hired because something resonated with that family.
Speaker B:That's a really good point.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you've already connected with them.
Speaker A:Sometimes personalities don't mix.
Speaker A:But I was just curious if, you know, you get these last minute ones where maybe they haven't read through your whole website or know your backstory and they're just hard to connect with.
Speaker B:I think it's too, like, it's a difference between the kind of work we do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because people come in and I'm not like, like you work with adults.
Speaker B:So people come in and then they're.
Speaker B:They're your subject.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So my people come in and then I'm mostly focusing on their baby.
Speaker B:So it's almost like the baby is the buffer, you know, between us.
Speaker B:It gives them time to warm up, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker A:You meet people on the street and you're playing with their Dog.
Speaker A:And you're not talking to them and the dog is the buffer, right?
Speaker A:Oh, you've got a dog too?
Speaker A:Yes, I've got a dog.
Speaker A:Let's talk dogs, right?
Speaker A:Let's talk about books.
Speaker A:So your first book, Lighting, right?
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:Second book, where are we going?
Speaker B:So exciting.
Speaker B:So I am, I think almost finished writing the second book.
Speaker B:So the second book is something I'm really excited about.
Speaker B:It's kind of for me, I'm viewing it as like a legacy piece.
Speaker B:So my first book was crafting the natural light look and teaching photographers to create natural looking light strobes and flash, because that's what I do.
Speaker B:But this book is the entire Sandra Cohn method.
Speaker B:So we are going into lighting and where I'm different in this book than or than the first book.
Speaker B:So first book lighting was really.
Speaker B:The lighting was kind of geared toward any genre, mostly studio, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:This book is crafted specifically for newborn and family photographers.
Speaker B:And so the lighting is taught specifically for newborn family photographers.
Speaker B:I have a whole section on lighting in people's homes.
Speaker B:So if you don't have a studio like most people don't like, how do you do that?
Speaker B:How do you just light an entire room with one flash?
Speaker B:How do you make it look like window light?
Speaker B:All that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:So I'm really excited about that piece that I get to speak directly to that part of the industry because a lot of people don't.
Speaker B:There's not a lot of resources out there for newborn and family photographers.
Speaker B:So we're going to do lighting.
Speaker B:Then we do posing.
Speaker B:So posing, newborns, families, maternity, the middle part of the book and then the last half of the book is putting those two things together like in real time.
Speaker B:So start to finish.
Speaker B:What is that consistent.
Speaker B:And I talk a lot about consistent, predictable routines and I teach people how to establish them for themselves.
Speaker B:And then last half of the book, then we're doing like in real life, irl, like, like, you know, you walk in, we're going to set up our.
Speaker B:Like here we're going to do this.
Speaker B:These poses, this lighting, these poses, this lighting and kind of showed the whole system together.
Speaker B:So I'm hoping, like I said, it's specifically for newborn family photographers.
Speaker B:I think we're calling it A Complete guide to Family Photography.
Speaker B:So that fits.
Speaker B:Straightforward.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's the whole picture and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker B:I've been working on it for a little over a year now and I'm looking at my calendar.
Speaker B:Manuscript is due the end of next month.
Speaker B: So it should be out in: Speaker B:I'm really excited.
Speaker A:Are you self publishing or do you work with a publishing company?
Speaker B:Yeah, I work with Rocky Nook.
Speaker B:They are fantastic.
Speaker B:So I did my first book with them and then we also did a set of posing cards for newborn poses.
Speaker B:Like, so this is my third project with Rocky Nook and they're great.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But listen, if you are a family, newborn family photographer, I'm just gonna say this, buy the book.
Speaker B:Because one of the concerns, and I've heard this throughout the industry, is that, you know, people get nervous.
Speaker B:Bigger brands like publishers or companies like education companies, speaking platforms about creating content specifically for newborn and family photographers because they're worried that there's not demand for it, which I think is so interesting.
Speaker B:You know, if you notice, in our industry a lot of, a lot of information is geared toward wedding photographers or geared toward fashion photographers or whatever, but not so much like family newborn photography is considered a niche, but it's a huge part of the market.
Speaker B:And so I feel really excited and really honored that Rocky Nook is trusting me to create a resource specifically for that underserved part of our industry.
Speaker B:And I'm really excited about it.
Speaker A:Why do you think it's underserved?
Speaker A:I mean, it's, it seems like anybody that's doing weddings is typically also doing families.
Speaker A:Maybe not newborns, but generally speaking, there's, you know, a lot, a lot more similarities in terms of clientele.
Speaker A:Why do you think there's not this push?
Speaker A:Is it just not sexy enough?
Speaker B:I mean, I have a lot of opinions.
Speaker B:You want to hear?
Speaker B:You want to hear my own pop?
Speaker A:I love opinions.
Speaker A:Bring them.
Speaker B:Okay, so I think, yeah, it's not, it's not considered sexy.
Speaker B:It's not taken seriously.
Speaker B:There's that whole thing, you know, the whole mom with a camera.
Speaker B:Women are called moms with a camera.
Speaker B:Like, how insulting is that?
Speaker B:Like, what does that even mean?
Speaker B:Like, be a freaking mom with a camera.
Speaker B:Good for you.
Speaker B:Like, you're your family.
Speaker B:Like, you're documenting your family.
Speaker B:Like, that's amazing.
Speaker B:That's incredible.
Speaker B:I think majority of newborn family photographers are women and I think it's women's work.
Speaker B:And oftentimes women's work isn't taken seriously or valued.
Speaker B:Like you look at teaching, you know, traditionally nursing, traditionally, these jobs that most of the women have filled are often not even sometimes poo pooed a little bit.
Speaker B:And I think that is at play in that as well.
Speaker B:And we need to shift that.
Speaker B:The reality is there are A lot of women, there are a lot of moms with cameras who are creating incredible work, incredible art, doing really important stuff, making a shit ton of money, to be fair.
Speaker B:It's also a very lucrative side of the industry and a very lucrative career and potential to be lucrative career.
Speaker B:So the only way we're going to shift that dynamic and have it taken more seriously is by demanding the resources and being loud and making a platform for ourselves as newborn family photographers for people to take seriously.
Speaker B:I mean, that's what, that's what I think.
Speaker B:I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker A:I think there's something in the water where you are because I talked to Elena Blair recently and she had similar thoughts.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And yeah, there is.
Speaker B:She's actually a good friend of mine.
Speaker B:We get on our, we get all worked up about this all the time.
Speaker A:I know you do and I, I love talking to both of you because you're so passionate about the family and newborn world and it doesn't have to be something that is just this little side hustle.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It can be a very.
Speaker A:Looking at the two of you, an extraordinarily profitable business.
Speaker A:And I love the fact that it's you putting out this book because it's not, oh, let me go on chatgpt and write a book about family photography.
Speaker A:This is hard, worn in the trenches type of information I'm sure built from an incredible career.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When can we see the book come out?
Speaker A:Tentatively.
Speaker A:When are we planning?
Speaker B: I think the goal is mid year: Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:We were trying, hoping, we were hoping to try to get it out before WPPI next year.
Speaker B:We'll see.
Speaker B:Next year.
Speaker B:Yeah, we'll see.
Speaker B:But I'm excited about too.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's this 26 years experience in this book that's like heart and soul into this book.
Speaker B:And so I'm like, I feel like it's a legacy piece because writing books is hard.
Speaker B:I don't know if I'll ever do it again.
Speaker A:It's why I ask so much about self publishing and when in timelines because, you know, I have some very good friends that are authors and it always takes way longer to do than people think and do it right, to go through the editing, to do all the logistics.
Speaker A:So I'm super proud of you.
Speaker A:I can't wait to see this come out.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know for me, I don't do lighting indoors, like natural light.
Speaker A:So I'm actually going to go back and pick up your first book and read through that anyway.
Speaker B:Well, thank you.
Speaker B:Be sure to leave.
Speaker B:Good review.
Speaker A:I'm going to put some food on your table because I know you're struggling.
Speaker A:So listen, I have.
Speaker A:I have a couple more questions before we land this plane.
Speaker A:What's a phrase in the industry that you absolutely want to get rid of?
Speaker B:That's probably shoot and burn.
Speaker A:Shoot and burn.
Speaker B:Oh, we can shoot.
Speaker B:Are you shooting burn?
Speaker B:Like, I feel like that's another derogatory, very like, shame inducing phrase.
Speaker B:It's like, come on, you know what I care about?
Speaker B:I don't care if you sell your digital files.
Speaker B:I don't care if you don't.
Speaker B:I don't care if you do in person sales.
Speaker B:I don't care if you don't.
Speaker B:I care that you're profitable.
Speaker B:So if you're running a profitable business and it's something that works for you and it works for your clients and however that shapes up, then good for you.
Speaker B:That's all I care about.
Speaker B:So why don't we just like, stop shaming people and just like, just stop.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker B:That one that gets me.
Speaker A:I don't like off camera flash.
Speaker A:Every flash is off camera flash.
Speaker A:Get rid of that.
Speaker A:Like, I need someone that's good with off camera flash.
Speaker A:So you need someone good at light is basically all you're saying.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I don't know, it's just one of those things that bugs me.
Speaker A:Always gets me.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, off camera flash.
Speaker A:If you weren't a photographer and teaching doesn't count, what's the alternative career that you would have gone down?
Speaker B:Well, if I wasn't a dorm, I was a teacher before and I'm doing the boat, so.
Speaker B:Okay, that's hard.
Speaker B:Okay, so like my, my fantasy, like, retirement job.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How would that, Would that work?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:The run.
Speaker B:I think it would be really fun just to like work in a bookstore or like sell plans or something.
Speaker B:Like, really relaxing.
Speaker B:Like, I'm a big reader and I'm like, oh, what if I just, like, worked in a bookstore and chatted with people about whatever.
Speaker B:Like, that would be nice about the.
Speaker A:Book that you just published and are pushing on to that.
Speaker B:I'm like, can I interest you?
Speaker B:And I need to create.
Speaker B:I'm just doing some flat.
Speaker B:I was thinking if I had one where I could grab it.
Speaker B:One of my old ones.
Speaker B:Yeah, I do.
Speaker B:It's right there.
Speaker B:Do I see it?
Speaker B:It's pretty.
Speaker A:Slide it over just a little bit more so everyone can see.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker A:There it is.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker A:God, it's.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Is that a hardcover?
Speaker B:No, this one is not, but it's very handy.
Speaker B:And what I love about this book too, like Rocky, Nick's awesome because they let me do kind of quote unquote risky things.
Speaker B:But this book, this, this book has a big section on film photography and the difference it is between film and a digital sensor and metering and stuff.
Speaker A:But no one like that's information.
Speaker A:It's tribal information that's not being really passed down anywhere, right?
Speaker B:Oh yeah, there's, there hasn't been a lighting book in probably 10, 15 years that had something on film photography, like at all.
Speaker A:I certainly haven't seen it.
Speaker B:It is, yeah, it's different.
Speaker B:Like you have to approach it different.
Speaker B:It doesn't work the same.
Speaker A:So you are methodical, you are confident, you have systems and workflows.
Speaker A:What's one rule that no matter what anybody says, you just love to break every single time.
Speaker A:It doesn't even have to be photography.
Speaker A:Like, do you speed through school zones or anything?
Speaker B:I like to break so photography related.
Speaker B:Apparently I use my bite modifiers wrong.
Speaker A:Don't listen to the old white guys on the Internet.
Speaker A:That's your first mistake.
Speaker B:Internet, like it's, and you're right, it's always an old, like, I love to tell me that I'm using my, my modifiers wrong.
Speaker B:It's like, okay, thank you, sir.
Speaker B:But so that happens and in real life, unpopular opinion.
Speaker B:I don't really like yoga and I know like everybody is supposed to like yoga and everybody's like, oh, let's go to yoga.
Speaker B:It's so relaxing.
Speaker B:I freak, I freaking hate yoga.
Speaker B:It drives me nuts.
Speaker B:It's like, I don't want to stretch.
Speaker B:I don't want to sit there.
Speaker B:I don't want to, I don't want to do any of it.
Speaker A:Do you ever calm this thing down your brain or is it always going non stop?
Speaker B:It's kind of always going.
Speaker B:But one, I, I, I am trying to work on that.
Speaker B:I do meditate every day.
Speaker B:But yeah, that's the, that's the challenge of being Sandra Kov, you know, I'd.
Speaker A:Be interested in seeing what you're ordering the comparison charts between she photographing a baby in meditation.
Speaker A:If it's the same, if it's the same chart, like it's all delta brain waves, you know?
Speaker B:It's funny though.
Speaker B:Me too.
Speaker B:Like, I want to see that too.
Speaker B:Like, so that's one of the reasons why I'm so excited about having it.
Speaker A:As we kind of wrap this up, where can everybody find this?
Speaker A:So if they're looking for You.
Speaker A:I know you've got your photography site, you've got your education stuff.
Speaker A:Where.
Speaker A:Where's the best place for people to follow up on this conversation and see your work, get in touch with you, buy your books, give me all the links and handles.
Speaker B:So probably easiest is Instagram, right?
Speaker B:Because we're all on the ground and you can just find me at Sandra Cohn.
Speaker B:Cone is spelled C O, A, so it's felt a little funny, but Sandra Cohn, that's where you're gonna find me.
Speaker B:My work.
Speaker B:You can DM me.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I'm really good at answering people back.
Speaker B:I actually love chatting with people in the dm, so that's really fun.
Speaker B:And then everything's linked from Instagram, so you can find my photography site, you can find my education site.
Speaker B:I run a certification program as well that's all linked in there, so that's probably the best place to start.
Speaker A:You are magnificent.
Speaker A:I am so, so happy that I forced you onto this.
Speaker A:I came by like, yes, said, hey, wanna come by?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was a bit taken aback.
Speaker A:I was like, all right, just slow down, consider it for a second.
Speaker A:Know what you're getting into.
Speaker A:You are amazing.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker A:I can't wait for people to listen to this.
Speaker A:And there's not a whole lot that I need to edit because you are.
Speaker A:You're a talker sister.
Speaker A:You are just like me.
Speaker A:I know you run me.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much for asking me and thank you for inviting me on your show.
Speaker B:Like, what a pleasure and so lovely to see your face and, yeah, I really appreciate it.
Speaker A:When am I going to see you again?
Speaker A:Are you doing any more shows this circuit or are you back home for a while?
Speaker B:I'm back home for a while.
Speaker B:So I do the big ones in one so imaging and maybe ppi.
Speaker B:And then, yeah, I'm trying to finish this book.
Speaker B:And then my kids are going to come home from college and I'm just going to focus on being a mom and just taking it easy for a few months.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:Well, stick around here for just another minute, but thank you so, so much and I will talk to you soon.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay, bye.
