Ep. 049 - Kara Marie Trombetta: Shift Happens-The Art of the Pivot
In this episode, I sit down with Kara Marie Trombetta, a photographer who’s reshaping the way we think about boudoir. Her work is rooted in self-respect, real empowerment, and helping people feel truly seen—without all the old-school glamor filters. We talk about what it takes to evolve as an artist, especially when the world around you keeps shifting, and how Kara built a business that reflects her values, not just trends. It’s a raw, thoughtful conversation about identity, creativity, and staying grounded when everything feels up in the air. Plus, we get into the nitty-gritty of pivoting your business to stay afloat during those economic curveballs life throws at you. Join us as we explore Kara Marie's colorful perspective on identity, creativity, and what it truly means to find your voice!
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: Kara Marie Trombetta: Shift Happens-The Art of the Pivot
Episode Number: 49
Publish Date: 16 May 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Kara Marie Trombetta and I dig into what boudoir photography really means beyond the surface-level stuff. Kara Marie shares how she’s redefined the experience—moving away from outdated ideas and turning it into something that celebrates honesty, confidence, and self-love. We talk about the emotional weight of self-portraiture, how it can crack you open in the best way, and why vulnerability is often the key to real growth. There’s also some straight talk about running a creative business in uncertain times and what it takes to keep evolving without losing your voice. It’s a real, honest conversation about showing up as yourself—and maybe helping others do the same.
Takeaways:
- Kara Marie Trombetta's photography is all about radical self-acceptance and reclaiming one's identity, redefining boudoir photography as a celebration of self.
- In a world where economic climates shift, pivoting your business is essential; adapt your offerings while staying true to your creative spirit.
- The emotional depth in photography emerges when artists connect with clients on a personal level, fostering genuine empowerment through the lens.
- Kara Marie emphasizes that authenticity in art comes from understanding and expressing your true self, beyond societal expectations or trends.
- Self-portraiture can be a journey of discovery, revealing parts of yourself you may not have fully embraced or understood before.
- It's crucial to break free from the pressures of conformity in the photography industry; every artist's voice deserves to be uniquely heard and celebrated.
Resources and Links
- WEBSITE: https://kara-marie.com/
- FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/karamariestudios
- INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/karamariestudios/
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Transcript
Hey, welcome back to Generator.
Speaker A:You know, while her work may be black and white, Kara Marie Trombetta is one of those people whose personality shows up in full color.
Speaker A:Whether you're hanging out with her in person, attending one of her workshops, or just looking at her incredible self portraits online.
Speaker A:She's known worldwide for her intimate style of portrait photography.
Speaker A:But honestly, that barely scratches the surface of defining her voice.
Speaker A:Kara Marie's work is about reclamation and radical self acceptance.
Speaker A:It's about identity.
Speaker A:It's about seeing yourself fully exactly as you are.
Speaker A:Unfiltered, unperformed, and sometimes maybe for the first time.
Speaker A:Over the years, she's built successful businesses for herself and others, but these days, she's garnered a global reputation as an incredible educator and speaker.
Speaker A:She's taught thousands of photographers how to shoot with more honesty and more purpose.
Speaker A:And she's done it without ever pretending she has it all figured out.
Speaker A:There's a lot of podcasts out there, like the Portrait System, the Studio Takeover, and the Self Value Podcast that talk about how she built her business in her personal experiences with burnout.
Speaker A:They're awesome.
Speaker A:I really recommend listening to them.
Speaker A:But I wanted to do something a little different with her time here.
Speaker A:So in this conversation, I tried to keep us focused on the emotional and the empathetic side of what we do as photographers.
Speaker A:We get into her self portraiture, her self reflection, living intentionally, and what it really means to make art that matters to you before it means anything to anyone else.
Speaker A:Kara Marie is unflinchingly honest.
Speaker A:She's sharp.
Speaker A:She leans into the hard parts of growth, and she isn't here to sugarcoat anything.
Speaker A:She's one of the most thoughtful artists I've ever spoken to, and I'm really grateful she joined me for this one.
Speaker A:So let's get into it.
Speaker A:Here's my conversation with the one and only Kara Marie.
Speaker A:This is what it is.
Speaker A:I don't do anything formal.
Speaker A:You'll find that along the way.
Speaker A:How is Lake Como?
Speaker A:These.
Speaker A:Are you in Lake Como?
Speaker A:You're in Lake Como now, right?
Speaker B:I'm in.
Speaker B:Yes, Lake Como.
Speaker B:I actually, I'm based in Como City.
Speaker A:Oh, in Como City.
Speaker B:In the thick of the action, yes.
Speaker A:You were just in Austin a couple weeks ago, right?
Speaker B:Well, I walk back and forth quite a bit.
Speaker B:Quite a bit.
Speaker B:I was in Austin last maybe six weeks ago, and I'll be back again in about two weeks.
Speaker B:So I'm still kind of straddling the line between American and Italian, but that's going to be shifting a little bit more towards the Italian side coming up.
Speaker A:Are you still doing anything with the collective there?
Speaker A:Like, you still learning the collective?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So I still have my team in Austin.
Speaker B:They do branding, photography, branding videos.
Speaker B:You know, it's all personal brandings and small businesses.
Speaker B:So they're still cranking on that, doing a really, really good job there.
Speaker B:And I don't have a lot to oversee.
Speaker B:They pretty much do everything, you know, I, I answer some emails every now and then and I, I check and approve work and that's it.
Speaker B:So that's it.
Speaker B:We, we have a well oiled machine now.
Speaker B:All good.
Speaker A:It's awesome.
Speaker A:I remember I stumbled across that, I think yesterday.
Speaker A:I remember hearing you talk about it.
Speaker A:I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker A:A couple of years ago.
Speaker A:And I stumbled across it again and I was like, oh, I wonder if you're still doing that.
Speaker A:But I remember you said your associates had kind of taken it over and it's more you and weighing on style.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's for them.
Speaker A:It was for them.
Speaker B:For them.
Speaker B:It was never for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I had built such a really amazing team in Austin and especially my, my studio manager, Jolie, she's a fantastic photographer in her own right and she had kind of been under my wing for so many years and then I was just all of a sudden picking up and moving to Italy.
Speaker B:Like, well, I need, I can't, I can't just take your job away from you.
Speaker B:So I essentially created a brand specifically for her with her and, and she's been the lead photographer and kind of the manager of that since I left.
Speaker B:She's doing great in following you for.
Speaker A:All these years and kind of getting to know you.
Speaker A:You're always one step ahead.
Speaker A:It seems like you're always one step ahead of whatever the industry trend or zeitgeist is going on.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I don't personally like to use the word boudoir, but it's the word that everybody knows.
Speaker A:I'm more of an intimate portrait guy.
Speaker A:And not even an intimate portrait guy, just a portrait artist.
Speaker A:That's what I do.
Speaker A:And I kind of think you're in that same vein.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where we're def.
Speaker A:Defying the terms that get put on us.
Speaker B:It's so limiting.
Speaker B:It's so limiting, but it's put a name on it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Headshots, personal branding, boudoir, families, pets.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's just we have a camera, we take pictures of interesting people.
Speaker A:What did you used to believe that you don't believe anymore about photography in General and then we'll start to really drill that.
Speaker B:Ye probably hyper Specialization was one of the things that I really, really truly believed.
Speaker B:You know, focus on one thing and you're gonna be the best at this one thing.
Speaker B:And I did that and I was pretty good at it.
Speaker B:I mean I, I, I established a pretty good business that way.
Speaker B:Was booked and busy and scheduled out in advance.
Speaker B:Had a long wait list.
Speaker B:Loved it, genuinely loved it.
Speaker B:But then it's interesting that we put ourselves in our own prison, right?
Speaker B:It's like it's not anybo.
Speaker B:I mean ultimately your audience is going to respond to what you train them.
Speaker B:And I trained my audience to expect one thing from me and it's still hard to break out of that box.
Speaker B:I still get people coming, you know, new clients coming in with, you know, my very old work as inspiration and wanting to do this very, you know, classic style boudoir, which there's nothing wrong with.
Speaker B:Just, I don't necessarily identify with it anymore because it was so streamlined and everybody was shot exactly the same and everything looked exactly the same and I couldn't differentiate.
Speaker B:I mean I could look at 45 different sessions.
Speaker B:The final shot of 45 different sessions and they were all exactly the same.
Speaker B:I couldn't tell you who they were.
Speaker B:Just like the same, like silhouette on the floor in the same exact pose.
Speaker B:It's just, you know, but I did it to myself and it was a brilliant system and it was a brilliant way to discover what it was that I didn't identify with anymore.
Speaker B:And that was making everyone look the same.
Speaker B:So yeah, that was hyper specialization.
Speaker B:I was like, that's the way to go.
Speaker B:That's essentially.
Speaker B:It was so funny.
Speaker B:I'm woo.
Speaker B:You know this Matt, you've known me for years.
Speaker B:But I had a friend of mine was like, I had this psychic reading and I have to set you up with this girl.
Speaker B:So I get on the phone with her and I'm just, she knows nothing about me and she didn't know my name, she doesn't know my line of work.
Speaker B:She, you know, a couple of things, she, she hit the nail on the head and a couple things were way off base.
Speaker B:But she said, are you like an artist?
Speaker B:That's type A.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh my gosh, I am, I am a type A artist.
Speaker B:And she was like, I feel like you took something that was really like creative and free spirited and you made it very corporate.
Speaker A:And then I was like, oh, the C word.
Speaker B:Like sucker punch.
Speaker B:Corporate.
Speaker B:There's a corporate artist.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that's true.
Speaker B:That's exactly what I did.
Speaker B:And now I don't, I don't identify with that anymore.
Speaker B:Although I do fight some, some bad habits.
Speaker B:But I'm much more free spirited and much less inclined to be able to even describe my work in a couple of words.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:It's hard to do now.
Speaker B:So that's, that's probably the biggest difference, I would say.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:And it's why I truly, truly enjoy looking at what you do.
Speaker A:Because there's stylistically this voice, but it's never the same.
Speaker A:Right, and which is the antithesis to what you were just talking about.
Speaker A:I remember when you, when I first saw you present, I think you showed some of your very early work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Here's the stuff I love.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You always do.
Speaker A:And it's beautiful.
Speaker A:It's beautiful because you share it.
Speaker A:When was the last time that you looked at your more recent work and felt that same level of discomfort that you felt about your early work?
Speaker A:Does that come up a lot?
Speaker B:Yeah, always.
Speaker B:Always.
Speaker B:It's always been that way for me though, since the very beginning.
Speaker B:I could, I could look.
Speaker B:And I think it was because, you know, I put myself in this high volume situation really early on first because I was passionate about it and I was just like excited and eager.
Speaker B:You know, you're brand new, bright eyed, bushy tailed photographer and you're like, yeah, let's do 100 shoots in a week and I'm going to take shots and I'm gonna process all of them.
Speaker B:I was just, you know, I had so much more energy then too, and I just don't anymore.
Speaker B:But so, so there was, so there was that Matt.
Speaker B:And then when you're advancing that quickly early on, you're looking back at your work from even a month ago and you've grown so much since then.
Speaker B:So you have this kind of ick about it and there's this gap, you know, when you're a creative brain, your art is advancing like this, your skill is getting better, but when you're a creative brain, your taste is better than that.
Speaker B:So there's always this gap between where your taste is because you have good taste and you know you want to be there and you know you have this potential and then where your actual skill set is and there's this very uncomfortable gap and it doesn't matter what stage of your career you're in.
Speaker B:Like right now I'm like, oh my gosh, why am I the worst photographer of all time?
Speaker B:I've been doing this for 18 years.
Speaker B:And I'm doing it, I've been doing it extremely high volume.
Speaker B:And I have enough proof from clients, from paying clients that, you know, my, my work is good.
Speaker B:But I, you know, I still, every, every month I evolve or from shoot to shoot, I evolve and I look back at my last work and like, wow, I could have done a lot better.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:But the comfort is in knowing that that is going to be there forever.
Speaker B:I'm always going to be that way.
Speaker B:And I have to get comfortable with that.
Speaker B:And I have.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:The funny thing about confidence is that those that should have it never do and those that shouldn't have bucket loads.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's one of those things I think that we, we fight as artists is knowing that there's always more that we can do, we can always get better.
Speaker A:But that doesn't mean that the current work is bad.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it's this, it's this balance.
Speaker B:I mean, and especially in this line of work, it's really important that it's why if you keep the connection at the center of it and the service at the center of it, you can't be doing a bad job.
Speaker B:I mean, if you're, if your client or your model walks out of the shoot feeling better about themselves in any way, shape or form, you can't beat yourself up too bad.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Let me shift to your self portraiture for a minute.
Speaker A:And I think about that a lot because I think you're one of the people lately that has been on this vanguard of radical self acceptance.
Speaker A:You, Terry, Mitzi.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's a, there's a collective of you out there that are really pushing the radical self acceptance through photography.
Speaker A:A lot of that starts with self portraiture.
Speaker A:You've been remarkably open and vulnerable with your self portraiture, but is there a story that you still have yet to tell through that photography as a self portrait artist?
Speaker B:I think, I think yes, probably so.
Speaker B:But it's such.
Speaker B:It's not a romantic reason or a poetic reason by any means.
Speaker B:It's merely practical.
Speaker B:Like genuinely, because I am quite a.
Speaker B:I'm a bit of a lazy photographer as well.
Speaker B:And because I have this problem with the contrived like, I never want to overly set up a shot.
Speaker B:I never want.
Speaker B:Because that takes away from the authenticity of it for me.
Speaker B:And that's part of what makes my self portraits, I think, so relatable to my clients and people that see them is they, they look very effortless, I think.
Speaker B:And there's so much.
Speaker B:I feel like there's so much more that I could do or would want to show of maybe my life.
Speaker B:But just the act of getting the camera out and setting it up or getting cameras out and setting up these intricate angles and things, it takes away from the, yeah, the, the in the moment.
Speaker B:Ness of it.
Speaker B:So I think, yes, that's probably the biggest thing is that I would want to show more of my life and show more of the, the mistakes and show more of the, like, really hard days.
Speaker B:But it's like, you know, see these Instagram influencers sometimes, like, weeping on their reels.
Speaker B:It's like, well, I mean, you did take the time to set up your camera and hit the button and then choose some music for it.
Speaker B:And so it's, you know, it takes away from that.
Speaker B:So I think I still need to come to some sort, maybe decide on a day where I'm going to set up three or four cameras to like, remotely fire just.
Speaker B:And just go about my business.
Speaker B:I think that could be an option for me.
Speaker B:But yeah, I think as far as choosing some sort of theme or choosing some sort of message.
Speaker B:No, not yet.
Speaker B:There's just nothing that I'm.
Speaker B:I'm feeling really pulled to do and I never want to force anything.
Speaker A:What do you see in your self portraits now that you wouldn't have seen a couple of years ago?
Speaker B:It's really fascinating to me to look at each self portrait and know exactly where I was in my head at that time.
Speaker B:I've had so many self portraits in the early days of kind of like forced sensuality.
Speaker B:I was a quintessential boudoir photographer.
Speaker B:You know, I, I had the lingerie and the heels and the, like, booty pop and the, you know, and Photoshop and all of that.
Speaker B:And in my head at the time, I was projecting confidence.
Speaker B:You know, this is a confident person.
Speaker B:But I look back at those and I see, like, what?
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:I just wasn't.
Speaker B:It's not that I was insecure.
Speaker B:I don't believe that I've really ever been super insecure in who I am, but I just didn't know her all the way yet.
Speaker B:You know, I was still, I was still young and still maturing, and I still hopefully will continue to do so as I age.
Speaker B:But it's like, you know, your, your entire life is a relationship with yourself, and you're getting to know yourself and you're courting yourself and you're understanding who you are and, and learning to accept and embrace each chapter of Yourself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I can look back at the.
Speaker B:The immature nature of where my head was at in those earlier images, and I would have not seen that back then.
Speaker B:I just thought, wow, this is a great boudoir photo, you know?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's that progression from sex appeal to self confidence.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And this, as you grow and age and get a little bit wiser, a little bit more experience, a little bit more settled with self, that the things that we thought were important kind of fall away, and it's bringing out that real part of you.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:Man, I don't like using the word authentic anymore.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But realness of men, it's like empowerment has been said, hasn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, but no, you're.
Speaker B:You're absolutely right about that.
Speaker B:I think it's really interesting to look.
Speaker B:You know, there's a lot of movements that come out with photography and with trends and things and.
Speaker B:And they kind of get beat to death and lose their meaning.
Speaker B:And for me, it became really crazy that I had to project such, you know, sensuality, sexuality.
Speaker B:And I thought, like, of course, you know, we're.
Speaker B:We can be sexy and sensual beings, but we're so much more than just that.
Speaker B:So just screaming that, hey, look at me.
Speaker B:Look at these curves.
Speaker B:Look at this, look at you just seemed so shallow.
Speaker B:There's so much more.
Speaker B:There's so much more to a person.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I mean, as I've.
Speaker B:As I've aged and gotten more experienced in both the industry and photography, it seemed like I was really doing a disservice to myself, to women, to all of my clients, to my entire audience for just narrowly defining what beauty looks like.
Speaker A:I think when people do self portraits, they feel like they need to put everything out in the world.
Speaker A:I did this, therefore you all need to see it.
Speaker A:That's not really the case.
Speaker A:Sometimes we do things just for ourselves.
Speaker A:Is there a version of you in photos that no one else sees?
Speaker B:You know, it's interesting.
Speaker B:Having been in front of other photographers, cameras.
Speaker B:It's interesting the way that I'm discovering that I'm seen by other people because to me, I have such a clear picture of who I am.
Speaker B:And I'm just very, you know, not contrived is probably the most pressing of that when I'm at least aesthetically presenting.
Speaker B:And I find that when other photographers are capturing me, it's in this way, like they're.
Speaker B:They're doing this thing where they're, you know, glamming me up or sexing me up or making me, you know, Barbie or, you know, whatever.
Speaker B:So for me is when I put my own self portraits out, I know that, you know, that was a very real moment and that I'm not crazily, you know, photoshopped.
Speaker B:I'm not doing.
Speaker B:Doing anything.
Speaker B:Especially now, you know, any wild poses or, you know, elaborate setups and at all.
Speaker B:I mean, it's, it's pretty janky, the kind of setups that I do.
Speaker B:I mean, my camera is never on a tripod ever, ever, ever.
Speaker B:It's like propped on something ridiculous and probably pretty dangerously.
Speaker B:But yeah, I mean, I don't.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I think my thing, Matt, is that I just really don't want to have to scream a message out every time I share something.
Speaker B:Self portraits or client.
Speaker B:Client images.
Speaker B:I like to tell stories.
Speaker B:I think stories are really important to tell, but I don't want.
Speaker B:I'm not going to stand up with a megaphone and scream about one tiny little facet of someone.
Speaker B:Fantastic body positivity moment.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Everybody love their bodies.
Speaker B:Everybody be more accepting of the fact that there is a very wide array of bodies.
Speaker B:That's fantastic.
Speaker B:But if I'm posting an image of someone, I'm not saying, hey, hey, look at her body.
Speaker B:I don't do that for anyone.
Speaker B:Why would I?
Speaker B:I don't want to narrowly define myself, my work, or, or any of my clients for that matter.
Speaker B:So I don't remember what the initial question was.
Speaker B:I probably got way off track there.
Speaker B:But it's fine.
Speaker A:You're saying, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to scream these things about yourself.
Speaker A:And that kind of triggered in my mind, what are the things that you say to yourself in the studio when you're doing these things that no one else can hear but you?
Speaker A:What does that self talk sound like?
Speaker A:Is it negative as a positive?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's nothing.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's unimpressive.
Speaker B:It's really, it's.
Speaker B:And I know, like, that's not the best answer to give.
Speaker B:I wish something more profound, but it's really not.
Speaker B:I mean, honestly, it's like I kind of swallowed a bug or like it's nothing profound.
Speaker B:And I'm not, you know, I don't have these, like, cathartic moments while I'm shooting very often myself.
Speaker B:I'm not a, like, oh, okay, I'm really going to capture this angst right now.
Speaker B:I'm really.
Speaker B:I don't do that.
Speaker B:I, I put on like, whatever music I'm feeling in the mood for.
Speaker B:That's really important to Me.
Speaker B:So if I, you know, if I'm feeling angsty, I'll put on angsty music.
Speaker B:If I'm feeling, you know, poetic, I'll put on, I don't know, Florence, the Machine, something like that.
Speaker B:I let the music set the tone.
Speaker B:I set my camera settings accordingly.
Speaker B:Like, is this going to be dark and moody?
Speaker B:Is this going to be bright and airy?
Speaker B:Is this going to be blurry?
Speaker B:Nine times out of ten, yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, I set that and then I free flow.
Speaker B:I just move around and I, I'm in that moment and I sit in it and I, I, after 25 frames are fired, I go back and look and see if anything inspires me to, to change anything up.
Speaker B:And I do it.
Speaker B:It's really not for me.
Speaker B:And even now in my client work, when I go back to my images after the fact, that's when I have more of a connection with them than in the process of shooting it.
Speaker B:I like the process of sitting down in front of my camera now or in front of my computer now, which I never did before, but I really enjoy that because it's so much slower and I get to really observe the changes in the facial expressions from shot to shot.
Speaker B:And you know, remember at this moment I was thinking one thing, you know, I did a really cool.
Speaker B:When I first moved to Italy, which I had no business going to this workshop because I didn't speak, like barely any Italian.
Speaker B:I spoke restaurant Italian, I knew how to order food.
Speaker B:And I went to an Italian speaking photography workshop taught by a contemporary artist, like a real legitimate artist that has exhibited in the Louvre.
Speaker B:And I'm sitting in this photography class, like trying to put the words together and talk about self portraiture.
Speaker B:And he gives me an assignment that he doesn't give anybody else because he looks at my work.
Speaker B:And this is a contemporary artist and my work is not very contemporary, especially up until the point in which I moved here.
Speaker B:It was very pretty and that was what he called my work.
Speaker B:It's very pretty work.
Speaker B:But like, show me some ugly, you know, like, oh gosh, you're right.
Speaker B:And he gave me this assignment and I kind of ran with it and I did what was called the 12 Hour Self Portrait.
Speaker B:And my rules were no professional lighting, no makeup, and camera settings had to stay essentially the same all day long.
Speaker B:And the camera was going to fire once every 15 minutes and take a picture of me.
Speaker B:And it was meant to show kind of, you know, the progression of being tired throughout the day or what you look like, how you look different throughout the Day and I had a skylight above me so you could kind of see in the shots as the daylight came and went.
Speaker B:I didn't real.
Speaker B:I'm like, this is so lame.
Speaker B:This is so boring.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:But just taking away the power of knowing when the click was coming was wild.
Speaker B:So I'm standing in front of this camera knowing that sometime in the next three minutes this is going to take a shot.
Speaker B:As soon as it does, I write down what I was thinking when that shot was fired.
Speaker B:Had no idea what was going to happen with this.
Speaker B:But here I am like looking like a drowned rat.
Speaker B:I mean, I was just.
Speaker B:It started at 6 o' clock in the morning and it went all the way or I'm sorry, 8am until 8pm every 15 minutes.
Speaker B:And I was exhausted just standing there, it was exhausting.
Speaker B:And I saw, you know, the, the bags under my eyes get deeper and I saw the bloodshot come in.
Speaker B:And at one point I was like chewing on a piece of chocolate when the shot fired.
Speaker B:And you can, looking at the shots afterwards, you can see it in my eyes.
Speaker B:You can see that I'm like, I'm revived a little bit.
Speaker B:And the final shot, I was laughing hysterically because I was just delirious, really.
Speaker B:Just, you know, it's finally over.
Speaker B:It's finally over.
Speaker B:That was a really powerful.
Speaker B:I thought it was such a lame assignment.
Speaker B:I just didn't get it.
Speaker B:Like, how boring is this?
Speaker B:Who's gonna wanna see this?
Speaker B:But when you put it together with the thoughts that were coming through my head, you can really tell.
Speaker B:I mean, you can read the little journal entries and look at shot number 15 and see that they go together.
Speaker B:And that's a really powerful thing when you're looking at your self portraits and knowing where your head was at at that time.
Speaker B:Very cool.
Speaker B:Very cool.
Speaker B:So I like that process better the after the fact than the during the fact.
Speaker B:I'm just not profound during the, during the shooting.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker A:I'm not the, the journaling aspect is something that I never really thought about doing.
Speaker A:You know, when I'm doing anything personal for myself, when I'm photographing anything in the studio or doing self port.
Speaker A:Just I've never thought about journaling it down.
Speaker A:I'm always like, like you.
Speaker A:I'm in my head.
Speaker A:Oh, oh, that's going to be an interesting shot.
Speaker A:They just caught me picking my nose or, you know, and I really like that it affected you that much.
Speaker A:I know a lot of clients when they go to a professional or, you know, real High end professional like yourself, they often come away saying, you've changed the way that I see myself.
Speaker A:You've changed how I view myself.
Speaker A:Do you bear any responsibility in that or do you feel like you're just a conduit to them seeing themselves?
Speaker A:Like, is there any responsibility that you manage?
Speaker B:Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:Because as we know, you know, you can put a camera in anyone's hand and they can take a picture of you and you can, it can change the way you see about yourself, but not in a good way.
Speaker B:There is a lot of responsibility that I hold and that I give, I guess, give myself credit for in that transaction.
Speaker B:And that is giving people the permission to just be themselves.
Speaker B:You know, I don't, I don't like to, I don't build in hair and makeup services anymore.
Speaker B:And I, I talk about that greatly with my clients before they have their shoot.
Speaker B:I, I don't require crazy wardrobe.
Speaker B:Like, everything is just very stripped down and real because I want to show every person that's in front of my camera that they don't need a makeover transformation in order to be photographed and to see themselves as beautiful.
Speaker B:And what's changed a lot about my work is that, you know, I spend so much time now sitting down before a shot is fired, before I even take the camera out and show it to them, talking to people.
Speaker B:Where are you at with your relationship with yourself, with your body, with how you see yourself in photographs?
Speaker B:What sides of you do you want to be portrayed in this photo shoot?
Speaker B:You know, what, what do you wish, what do you love about yourself that you wish you saw more often or you need to be reminded about more often?
Speaker B:I have these really personal conversations and get a little bit like, woo.
Speaker B:And it's not for everybody.
Speaker B:You know, a lot people want that.
Speaker B:They want the makeover transformation, they want the Photoshop, they want the.
Speaker B:And there is certainly a market for all of that.
Speaker B:But I really make an effort to take a lot of time and get really close with my clients beforehand, understand what it is, because I don't want to decide for them how they should be seen.
Speaker B:I really want to know what they want to see in themselves.
Speaker B:And I take a lot more candidates.
Speaker B:Now, those outtakes in between shots, and those are always the ones that people are like, oh my gosh, I've never seen it before, but this, I look like my mother, or I look like my grandmother who's passed away, or for the first time I'm seeing my kids in my.
Speaker B:Usually they say my kids look like my husband.
Speaker B:But this is the first time that I've seen my kids in me, and just.
Speaker B:It's really.
Speaker B:It's so special.
Speaker B:And when you take that time to really connect with people and ask them those important questions, first of all, it puts them at so much ease because they recognize they're in really good hands and that you actually do care about this process.
Speaker B:And it's not just, you know, a paycheck or just, you know, get you in and get you out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It makes it so much more special.
Speaker B:And when I started to transition, I've always been really great with customer service.
Speaker B:Like, I've always put a lot of effort into making my clients feel served and just serving the hell out of them.
Speaker B:But when I made that kind of pivot into not putting them into the box and not, you know, photographing everybody in the same exact poses in the same exact way and assuming that everybody wanted to look curvy in certain spots and skinny in other spots, you know, when I made that pivot, my work just got so much deeper, and my job satisfaction just got so much deeper because my clients were just.
Speaker B:The emotional reactions that they were having to their photos was just like nothing I had experienced before.
Speaker B:And then once you start doing that, you never go back.
Speaker B:You never go back.
Speaker A:I agree.
Speaker B:A lot more exhausted, I'll say.
Speaker B:After a photo shoot is like all of the energy that's been going in and out, and it's just a lot of.
Speaker B:It's a lot of emotions.
Speaker B:It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I can't imagine doing this kind of work the way I do it now.
Speaker B:You know, 10 years ago, when I was doing high volume, eight and 10 in a week, which is insane, I would have never been able to emotionally keep up.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it's really powerful this way.
Speaker A:Is there any part of giving or receiving that vulnerability from someone that still makes you uncomfortable in any way?
Speaker A:Is there ever any situation connecting with someone so deeply that it.
Speaker A:You're like, I've wandered into that territory.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's hard because I'm also not a therapist.
Speaker B:I'm not licensed.
Speaker B:I'm not a licensed medical professional in any way, shape or form.
Speaker B:And sometimes things get real heavy and real deep.
Speaker B:And I, you know, I can be a great listener and I can, you know, console, and I can hug and I can say, like, maybe a little motivational thing, but in those situations where it gets, like, really heavy really fast, I'm like, oh, shit, what do I do?
Speaker B:Because it's funny, you Know, I'm in this line of work, which is wild to me that I'm in this line of work, working primarily with women.
Speaker B:My whole personal life outside of my work is all boys.
Speaker B:It's just testosterone everywhere.
Speaker B:I'm just.
Speaker B:I'm a boy, Mom.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And, like, the testosterone of my boys in particular.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Like, I am, like, all.
Speaker B:All of my friends.
Speaker B:Most of my friends are gay men or they are, like, women that project more of masculine energy.
Speaker B:So it's really wild to me that I have this crazy juxtaposition between my personal life and my work.
Speaker B:And so, you know, and I goof off a lot in.
Speaker B:In both my life and my work.
Speaker B:But, yeah, sometimes, like, heavy emotions give me, like, oh, there, there.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know what to do.
Speaker B:I don't know what to do.
Speaker B:So it's crazy that I've crafted this very specific line of work for myself, and it does make me uncomfortable every time.
Speaker B:Every time.
Speaker B:Every time.
Speaker B:It's like, it's the same kind of discomfort that a lot of people experience in receiving compliments.
Speaker B:I think I feel the same kind of like, I don't know what to do right now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I've worked really hard to just be as good of a listener as I can be and, you know, not focus so hard on trying to give, you know, advice or counseling, because that's not my specialty.
Speaker B:It's more just giving people the permission to share whatever they want to share and to be them themselves.
Speaker B:To be themselves and to know that even if they blink or start crying or, like, make a silly face, it's still them.
Speaker B:And they're going to appreciate those photos someday, even if they don't today.
Speaker B:You know, Mitzi.
Speaker B:You brought up Mitzi, who.
Speaker B:She's obviously fantastic, and she.
Speaker B:She kind of.
Speaker B:I don't want to.
Speaker B:I was going to use a word that made it sound negative, but she kind of, like, pressured me a little bit into, like, doing this for this raw photo shoot.
Speaker B:And I didn't have.
Speaker B:You know, I don' Typically seek out photos from photographers anymore because they're just never me.
Speaker B:They're.
Speaker B:It's just not me.
Speaker B:The only people that photograph me the way that I like to be photographed, it's just myself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:And I'm sure that.
Speaker B:Yeah, so I was, you know, but I knew her shtick.
Speaker B:I knew that it was, you know, raw as I am.
Speaker B:Just, like, show up.
Speaker B:And she was coming to my workshop, and she, like, came to my hotel room or I went to hers or something, and we, like, knocked it out and.
Speaker B:And I'm looking at these photos afterwards and this is the first time because it was really just a sit and talk.
Speaker B:You know, I was sitting there, we were talking to each other.
Speaker B:I'm watching, I'm looking through the photos afterwards and seeing all my hand mannerisms and the way that I speak.
Speaker B:Like, there's no way to have a photo shoot like that and it not be you.
Speaker B:You know, you're just.
Speaker B:You're not trying to do anything or to be anything.
Speaker B:You're just sitting and talking and people don't get to see themselves like that very often.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's a really.
Speaker B:It's a.
Speaker B:It's a cool thing to let people feel like they don't have to project beauty or sensuality or intelligence or, you know, insert any characteristic here.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's a really cool thing.
Speaker A:You said a couple of things in there that really hit home for me.
Speaker A:One, no, we're not therapists.
Speaker A:We press buttons.
Speaker B:Oh, no, don't get it twisted.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So as I've progressed from doing the same thing, kind of glam work, more commercial work, high end, very beautiful to now strip it down, no makeup.
Speaker A:Let's just be here, existing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's kind of where I've moved my stuff.
Speaker A:Just the act of holding space for someone, just listening, not giving advice, not trying to solve their problems, but just giving them that space to just let out the poison sometimes is all that needs to happen.
Speaker A:I think people think there's a magic thing to connecting with someone really deeply, and I used to think that too.
Speaker A:But there's.
Speaker A:There's not.
Speaker A:It's the ability to sit and listen to someone genuinely actually listen.
Speaker A:Not, oh, God, I'm running late and we're never going to get to these photos.
Speaker A:And what do I have to just sit.
Speaker A:Let them get it out.
Speaker A:That little bit of curiosity that you can lean into is going to help the session.
Speaker A:At least that's what I found.
Speaker A:Is there an emotion that you love to capture and one that you try to avoid in your photos, or do you just let the spectrum run?
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:I let the spectrum run.
Speaker B:But I will say I absolutely love, love, love, love, love.
Speaker B:Like authentic laughter.
Speaker B:Like real.
Speaker B:Like if somebody just, like, loses it and just.
Speaker B:Just, you know, like that kind of laughter.
Speaker B:Oh, I love it so much.
Speaker B:And that is.
Speaker B:That is my.
Speaker B:Which is so funny too, because, you know, I do a lot of, like, confidence work and power portraits and these kinds of things, which is Important to get and, and putting people into these strong, confident, you know, power poses genuinely, it physiologically changes them.
Speaker B:It does build confidence, it increases their test testosterone, it decreases their cortisol levels.
Speaker B:But it's the personality shots that come after that that are my favorite.
Speaker B:Like, so the, the confidence, like the power portraits.
Speaker B:That building of the confidence is such an important, crucial step.
Speaker B:It's an, it's a crucial first step, but it's what comes after that.
Speaker B:The images speak to me the most.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have to say as a side note, that power portraits posing ebook that you put out is worth every cent.
Speaker B:So I like it.
Speaker A:I hope people check it out because that style of posing for women that I've found whenever I utilize some of those techniques, they sit up, they feel better, and there really is just a shift in total attitude.
Speaker A:No matter what.
Speaker A:Even if it's just a few pieces playing at the end, there is a absolute shift that is palpable.
Speaker A:And I love how in that book as well, you go through all the.
Speaker A:Why all the intention.
Speaker A:Here's how.
Speaker A:Not just put your leg here, put your arm here, put the light here.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:There's so much more intention to it and that draws out the actual pose rather than just take your body contorted into this position and we're done.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right, Precisely.
Speaker A:So, yeah, as you're, as you're doing that and people start to see themselves differently, is there one truth that you've learned in all of that from all of your clients?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Doesn't.
Speaker A:Doesn't mean they all have to have the same emotion.
Speaker A:But is that, is there one truth that you've learned through all these sessions about that essence of power?
Speaker B:Yes, I.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And I'll say this in regards to women specifically.
Speaker B:Women are afraid of, of being that confident.
Speaker B:They are.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They fear that they're going to be viewed as bitchy and genuinely.
Speaker B:And here's the thing, not to get all, you know, deep or whatever, but yes, of course, society has trained us.
Speaker B:But what's wild to me is it's kind of women that are doing this to women.
Speaker B:It's kind of us that are the hardest critics on ourselves and each other.
Speaker B:And this fear of being like, just like fully in your power because of the potential societal ramifications of that, that seems to be.
Speaker B:Even in the women that come in and they're like, they do project confidence on a regular basis, they still have that little bit because I don't know.
Speaker B:That's just.
Speaker B:It breaks my heart.
Speaker B:It breaks my heart.
Speaker B:There's Just that little thing that's still holding them back from the next level or their full potential.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That is a constant.
Speaker B:It's everybody that I photograph, which I.
Speaker B:You know, I'm trying to change that one photo shoot at a time, but all I can do is chip away at it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Give away.
Speaker A:Do you call that out to them in the moment?
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:You know, what I'll do is.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And this was something that actually.
Speaker B:And Terry, I think it was Terri that taught.
Speaker B:Taught me, you know, just asking the question.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Yeah, just why?
Speaker B:It's like what a good therapist does.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That doesn't actually give you the advice.
Speaker B:It gets you to give yourself the advice.
Speaker A:Tell me what you think about that way.
Speaker B:There are similarities, but no, you know, I don't want to look.
Speaker B:You know, when I don't smile, I look mean.
Speaker B:Why do you think that is?
Speaker B:Like, why.
Speaker B:Why do you think you look mean?
Speaker B:Do I mean, do you think that you like to see photos of yourself smiling more than not smiling?
Speaker B:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:So it's just asking the question and getting them a little uncomfortable for a second and then recognizing that.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Perhaps it's okay if I.
Speaker B:I don't smile for every single picture.
Speaker B:Just exploring it.
Speaker B:It's like an exercise, right?
Speaker B:We're flexing muscles and just exploring ideas that challenge us a little bit.
Speaker B:And I think that's really important to do.
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:I don't ever want to claim that somebody coming in for a photo shoot with me is going to completely transform their lives.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:Sometimes, though, a lot of times it does, because it poses a question that they've never considered before, so that, you know, it's important to just be a conduit for that, as you said.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it's part of the connection.
Speaker A:You called it out correctly.
Speaker A:I never like to make someone feel uncomfortable in front of the camera, but I probe a little bit because it is going to help them discover themselves.
Speaker A:It's not my responsibility.
Speaker A:Again, coming back to it to be your therapist.
Speaker A:But I will pull on threads if I hear something right.
Speaker A:You pull on that thread a little bit, and typically they'll take it and just unravel everything.
Speaker A:Then I'm like, oh, God, what did I start?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:I'm now super uncomfortable.
Speaker A:Let's just get back to laughing.
Speaker A:Click, click, click.
Speaker A:So, but I think.
Speaker A:I think there is a part in almost every shoot where you do cross that threshold into understanding the person more.
Speaker A:Maybe why they were a little bit more hesitant.
Speaker A:Maybe why they are potentially overacting acting or putting a mask on, right?
Speaker A:You just, you start to understand people.
Speaker A:That little bit of empathy I take into every subsequent shoot say, I don't know what they're going through up here.
Speaker A:So let me just try to understand them the best that I can.
Speaker B:It's really good to start to lay that groundwork before the photo shoot as well.
Speaker B:I found when, you know, I've always had kind of a heavy questionnaire for my clients for before their photo shoot, but now it's, it's, it's really, you know, talk to me about your relationship with your body.
Speaker B:I give them like a drop down box first.
Speaker B:So it's just like, okay, where am I at?
Speaker B:Do I like, hey, you're in dancing naked in front of the mirror all the time.
Speaker B:Like, you look great.
Speaker B:Which is almost nobody that I photograph with.
Speaker B:I, I mean, and so there it ranges from that all the way down to like, I absolutely love the way that I look.
Speaker B:I don't, I'm not comfortable with who I am as a person.
Speaker B:I'm like, I mean that's a huge.
Speaker B:And when you see that on a photography questionnaire, you're like, oh right, this is gonna be a, you know, and it's just asking question because I want them to think about why, why are you doing this?
Speaker B:You know, it's not especially, you know, earlier on in the game when I had very narrowly defined niche, you know, people, oh, it's a wedding present or like da, da, da.
Speaker B:And then over the course, course of, you know, the shift in my brand message, I would start to get people saying, oh, you know, I'm, I'm celebrating my 50th birthday.
Speaker B:So then it turns into them.
Speaker B:But it still has to have a reason.
Speaker B:You know, it has to have a birthday or you know, a very specific thing attached.
Speaker B:Now people are coming to me because they, you know, they just kicked cancer or they just left a toxic relationship and they're ready to like rebirth themselves.
Speaker B:So it's, it's really interesting how what we put out there as photographers and artists about what our message is, what our brand is, when we make that our voice match the aesthetic, the magic that unfolds and how it just sucks people in that need you.
Speaker B:You know, it's not just, I'm looking for a photographer.
Speaker B:I don't photograph people that are just looking for a photographer.
Speaker B:They would choke on the prices.
Speaker B:Like, there's no, people don't come to me for that.
Speaker B:You know, they're coming to me for Something very specific.
Speaker B:Has my audience narrowed?
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker B:Sure has.
Speaker B:Definitely not for everyone now.
Speaker B:Before I was for most people and now I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm just not.
Speaker B:And it's, it's a really, it makes it so much more impactful for each client.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:I always suggest to photographers to start, or artists of any type to really start asking those questions before they even step in front of your camera.
Speaker B:You know, what, what is it that would make you, you know, shrivel up and want to die if you saw it in your photographs?
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:I'm just asking the question.
Speaker B:I want to hear their answers.
Speaker B:I'm not giving them any.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes I'll drop them some links beforehand if I'm like seeing some real red flags, like, right, check out my friend Terry's work, you know, hand it over to the professionals.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's really important to ask those questions beforehand.
Speaker B:That's going to lay a lot of the groundwork for you.
Speaker B:You're still going to have uncomfortable moments, like you said, in front of a camera, but if you get some of the ick out of the way beforehand, it's.
Speaker B:It can only help.
Speaker A:Well, you know, they're walking into your studio with wardrobe and accessories and a shit ton of beliefs about themselves that they've had since childhood.
Speaker A:Is there a belief about yourself that took longer to rewrite than you were expecting?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, gosh.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what's really funny, it took me leaving the US just because of me, because for any other reason.
Speaker B:Just because.
Speaker B:Took me leaving the United States and moving to.
Speaker B:Across the world, to Italy, in which the values are completely different.
Speaker B:Very different.
Speaker B:It is, you know, women have much more clearly defined roles.
Speaker B:There's things that are acceptable for women to do and not acceptable for women to do.
Speaker B:You're a mom, okay?
Speaker B:You're a mom.
Speaker B:You know, and when I first moved here, I was so resistant to that.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I'm going to bring, you know, my card carrying feminism to this country and I'm going to spread this.
Speaker B:Like, I'm just, I was so, like, I really, I, I had a chip on my shoulder about it and I leaned so hard into, you know, I want to be a career woman.
Speaker B:I want to build this, like, corporate art business for myself.
Speaker B:I leaned so hard into that that I really sacrificed so much of my softness and, and my femininity.
Speaker B:Honestly.
Speaker B:I had, I had an, A friend here that's very, very intuitive.
Speaker B:She does a lot of body work and breath work and Things like that.
Speaker B:And she was like the first person to ever tell me, well, you have penis envy.
Speaker B:I was like, what do you mean?
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:Which all of my friends know that I, you know, I draw little penises and everything.
Speaker B:You know, just like a 12 year old boy.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not.
Speaker B:And she's like, well, you very obviously have been just projecting this.
Speaker B:You know, you've been trying really hard to be masculine.
Speaker B:You, this isn't not, it's not necessarily a thing that comes naturally to you or didn't.
Speaker B:And now you've, you've leaned so hard into it that it's really hard for you to embrace your softer side and your, your more feminine.
Speaker B:And I say that in air quotes because everyone has masculine and feminine energy in different amounts.
Speaker B:Right, Agreed.
Speaker B:I just, yeah, I leaned so hard in.
Speaker B:And then I got here and I'm having a really hard time.
Speaker B:I mean, less and less.
Speaker B:It's getting easier, but not affixing all of my value onto what I've built and what I've created other than, you know, my family, my boys and, and that was a really radical shift for me.
Speaker B:And it didn't come without some kicking and screaming.
Speaker B:I mean, it was, it was really hard.
Speaker B:And I went into this kind of spiral of I was thinking I knew exactly who I was.
Speaker B:I know who I am.
Speaker B:I know exactly who I am.
Speaker B:And then I got here and then the work part of me was dissolved for a little while.
Speaker B:I very intentionally took a step back for two years really, and just focused on, you know, assimilating to this new culture.
Speaker B:And that is like, okay, you're, you're a woman, so you're a mom and you're going to be at school, drop off and pick up and every play and every soccer game and da da.
Speaker B:Which I always did that before.
Speaker B:I always had my laptop with me, you know, and I was burning the candle at both ends and I was miserable.
Speaker B:I was miserable.
Speaker B:So, you know, detaching from all of that and losing that, that fixation on productivity and how much money my studio is generating and all of my accomplishments that had nothing to do with like who I was as a person really, that was.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was, it was wild.
Speaker B:I'm on this and I'm not done.
Speaker B:I'm still, I'm still working on it.
Speaker B:But it's been so beautiful to.
Speaker B:All of a sudden, you know, I told my husband, poor thing, horse my.
Speaker B:You know, we, we were both like high, you know, high career people in Austin.
Speaker B:And then you Know, we had kind of an.
Speaker B:We came to a head and we had this kind of opportunity.
Speaker B:It was like, well, the kids are, you know, the kids are getting older.
Speaker B:We are not.
Speaker B:Like, we're not nanny people.
Speaker B:We're not.
Speaker B:Like, we wanted to be very present in our kids lives, but we couldn't both in equal amounts.
Speaker B:Like, there had to be one person that took on more of like the home roles.
Speaker B:And I demanded that.
Speaker B:That was him.
Speaker B:They demanded it.
Speaker B:Like, you, you're.
Speaker B:First of all, you're a great cook.
Speaker B:It was like cooking and cleaning and.
Speaker B:And all of the, you know, traditional female roles, whatever.
Speaker B:And he's like, cool.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:For years, I mean, he always carried his business and he just, you know, he intentionally slowed himself down so that he wasn't working as much and did all of those things.
Speaker B:And when people asked him what he did for a living, he said he was a trophy husband and like, got a kick out of it and like, loved it.
Speaker B:Like, ate it up.
Speaker B:Loved it.
Speaker B:And even after we, we arrived here, then he was really.
Speaker B:He was working just for me.
Speaker B:He had sold his business in Austin.
Speaker B:He was working for my company.
Speaker B:And he was like, I don't do anything.
Speaker B:I'm just like, she's my boss.
Speaker B:She's the boss.
Speaker B:And then I was like, so the same time with the, you know, we picked up and moved and, and slowed everything down.
Speaker B:And I'm like, oh, no, I'm intentionally slowing down.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm going to go like, slow to like, retirement.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker B:I just really need to like, slow down and focus.
Speaker B:And then I was like, oh, okay, babe.
Speaker B:I changed my mind.
Speaker B:I changed my mind.
Speaker B:And he was like, what do you.
Speaker B:What do you mean?
Speaker B:Can I be a trophy wife for a while?
Speaker B:And he was like, what?
Speaker B:Who are you?
Speaker B:Who are you?
Speaker B:Obviously I would never take it to that extreme.
Speaker B:I'm too.
Speaker B:I enjoy work too much.
Speaker B:I enjoy that.
Speaker B:I just really got into this, like, slower, less scheduled, more present, more involved with the kids.
Speaker B:And you know, I just, I really liked it.
Speaker B:So I changed my mind.
Speaker B:So he's now, you know, we started a boat company here, boat tour company on the lake.
Speaker B:And that's where he is now.
Speaker B:And he'll be captaining a boat like crazy because I changed my mind.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:I will always work and I always want to work.
Speaker B:Always.
Speaker B:I don't want to have to.
Speaker B:Such a diva.
Speaker A:Diva.
Speaker A:This is, you know, this is what everyone says about you.
Speaker A:I've read it everywhere.
Speaker A:Very, very hard to deal with.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker A:Diva esque green M&M's only that sort of thing.
Speaker A:So life, life can get kind of weird and roller coaster up and down and you can go to these extremes on the emotional spectrum.
Speaker A:What brings you back to center?
Speaker A:Do you have a ritual that after a shoot or after the family gets kind of nuts for a little bit?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're around all these guys.
Speaker A:Do you have a ritual that just kind of brings you back to center?
Speaker B:I mean I, that was, that was there for the last 10 minutes.
Speaker B:It was sub joke of it.
Speaker A:So subtle.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, so I have a very specific incense that I light that I.
Speaker B:It just brings everything to like it's the most in.
Speaker B:In fact that was another like husband wife battle because he was like, it triggers my asthma and I'm like, well you're going to have to go.
Speaker A:We had a good run.
Speaker B:I did it right.
Speaker B:So yeah, I have a very specific incense that I burn and it's so funny because all of my workshops, you know, no matter where in the world, it's like travel with it and people are.
Speaker B:I used to burn it in my studio.
Speaker B:It was like signature scent.
Speaker B:But that is always what it just that scent kind of brings me back also.
Speaker B:Being in nature, like going for a walk in the woods is the most powerful drug.
Speaker B:It's just wild how that just chills you out.
Speaker B:You know, you leave your camera, you leave your phone, you just walking in the woods, it's.
Speaker B:It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker B:So those are the things that are just, you know, nothing else exists in the world when the, when those things happen.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's the reason I moved to the sticks.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I was, yes.
Speaker A:Doing a, a shoot yesterday and came home.
Speaker A:It's beautiful.
Speaker A:It's like the first beautiful day in Maine in months.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Since like last year.
Speaker A:And so it was about 75° yesterday and I was, I was out and I was working in the yard and flew the drone a little bit and just wanted to get some top down views of where I am because there's like a hundred undeveloped acres all around me.
Speaker A:So literally in the middle of.
Speaker A:In the sticks, right.
Speaker A:It really brought home the fact that after growing up in Boston for my entire life, moving up north about 15 years ago, the radical shift that that brought me in terms of peace and confidence and just getting out of the rat race, getting out of the burnout, not that working for yourself is any piece of cake, but you know, the fact is you just learn to appreciate things differently.
Speaker A:And that's the one thing that I'm grateful for.
Speaker A:Is that I can keep coming back to this one spot over and over and just recenter.
Speaker A:And you've talked about that 100%.
Speaker A:I remember you talking about it in your customer service workshop.
Speaker A:Got about, you know, how you can make your space more inviting and how it can center yourself and center your clients.
Speaker A:And I remember you talking about your signature set.
Speaker A:Let's pivot to your workshops.
Speaker A:And I use the word pivot intentionally.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Ah, yes.
Speaker A:Ah.
Speaker A:See what I did?
Speaker A:I've been holding on to that one for.
Speaker B:You're really good at that.
Speaker A:4,500.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I appreciate that.
Speaker A:The pivot workshop.
Speaker A:Tell me about it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:So this is.
Speaker B:This is my baby.
Speaker B:I'm so excited about this workshop.
Speaker B:So there's sessions, and they're.
Speaker B:It's like a creative intervention is what I'm calling it.
Speaker B:You know, I listen pretty well to my colleagues, my peers, where the market's at, and there's certain things that I'm.
Speaker B:I am qualified to speak on and certain things that I absolutely am not.
Speaker B:And I will never speak or teach on anything that I'm not qualified to do.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Which is really frustrating for a lot of my students because we'll be in a workshop, and they'll be like, can you.
Speaker B:Okay, so if my f.
Speaker B:Stop is this.
Speaker B:And like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker B:Slow down, slow down.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:What's happening right now?
Speaker B:You know, people are freaked out.
Speaker B:If you are a systematic photographer or a systematic artist who's always done things, or at least for a long time, has done things a certain way, and you've gotten pretty safe in your work, you know, things are probably slowing down for you right now.
Speaker B:Or what is.
Speaker B:What was working for you is no longer working for you.
Speaker B:The things that were guaranteed.
Speaker B:Even your social media has quieted down or changed a lot, and people are freaked out.
Speaker B:And I'm watching creatives, which is probably 95% of the people that I, like, follow and connect with are, like, creative people, and they are reeking of desperation right now.
Speaker B:Like, which is the worst thing that you can do?
Speaker B:It's the very worst thing you can do.
Speaker B:And, you know, people are like, oh, well, I could.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:Do I.
Speaker B:Is this the end?
Speaker B:Is this the end for me with AI and with this and this?
Speaker B:And, like, this is the end for my industry.
Speaker B:It's done.
Speaker B:And I throw in the towel and I go back to, I don't know, bartending or, you know, whatever, which.
Speaker B:Which.
Speaker B:Nothing wrong with a pivot.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:But I use the word Pivot very specifically.
Speaker B:Like, it doesn't mean that everything has to change.
Speaker B:This is a perfect opportunity for people to do a creativity audit to.
Speaker B:Because there's so few people that I speak to that actually love their lives.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Even those of us, especially those of us that have built our own little prisons.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, I am a photographer.
Speaker B:I photograph women in this way, and I built the studio, and it's been successful for all of these years.
Speaker B:And, you know, I started procrastinating on editing, and my turnaround time got longer and longer and I started to dread maybe that I booked two shoots in one week or three shoots in one week.
Speaker B:And, you know, God, emails are killing me.
Speaker B:And oh, my God, another, there's.
Speaker B:I'm noticing that a lot of creatives have more things that they dislike about their jobs and their work than they like.
Speaker B:And that is such a crucial piece of the formula to being recession proof, to being market, to transcending market trends and algorithms.
Speaker B:And you have to truly love your life.
Speaker B:You have to love your work life, your personal life.
Speaker B:And I used to put those two things in such separate boxes, and I was just doing a disservice to both my professional self and my personal self when I learned to kind of bridge that and have this more fluid lifestyle.
Speaker B:I changed my world.
Speaker B:It changed my work.
Speaker B:It changed my bottom line.
Speaker B:It changed everything.
Speaker B:My relationships, it changed everything.
Speaker B:And, you know, you fall in and out of touch with that.
Speaker B:You have to remind yourself, you have to keep.
Speaker B:Keep aggressively auditing your work, your lifestyle.
Speaker B:And the pivot sessions is about waking you up and forcing you to take a good, hard, honest look at the life that you built for yourself.
Speaker B:You know, everyone's like, I ask people, what do you like to do?
Speaker B:Well, like, oh, I love.
Speaker B:I just love going for walks.
Speaker B:I just love being outside in nature.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:How often do you do that?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker B:Well, and there's a hundred different excuses, you know, like, I like to, but maybe, really, when it boils down to it, maybe only once every three weeks or so.
Speaker B:Why are you not doing that every single day?
Speaker B:Oh, well, I couldn't possibly.
Speaker B:Well, why not?
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:It's really forcing you to take a look at.
Speaker B:You know, for me, I got into my car and this is in Austin.
Speaker B:I Woke up at 4:14am 4:14am don't know why.
Speaker B:Got up, got ready, got to, like, all my meal prepped into containers and got the kids up and got them off to the bus stop and got in my car and drove to my studio.
Speaker B:Before rush hour, while the sun was still down because I didn't want to sit in rush hour traffic.
Speaker B:And then I would, my, my workday is extended.
Speaker B:Extended, extended because I was avoiding the traffic.
Speaker B:And then I would get in my car and I would, you know, drive to a gym where I would pay an exorbitant amount of me to move my body.
Speaker B:And this is a very normal American thing, right?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:We have gym memberships and we go and we like.
Speaker B:Which is great.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Take care of your health and your body for sure.
Speaker B:But like, maybe we start moving a little bit throughout the day.
Speaker B:Maybe, you know, maybe we make an effort to, you know, walk around the block a couple of times because it actually makes us happier.
Speaker B:You know, physiologically, it makes us happier.
Speaker B:It's better for us, us than, you know, walking on a treadmill in a gym.
Speaker B:And you have to do what you have to do.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But we keep putting ourselves in these prisons and then before we know it, we don't recognize our lives and we're not doing anything that lights us up anymore.
Speaker B:You know, you don't have to pick up and move across the world.
Speaker B:I did because I was, I was that habitual about my terrible, terrible habits.
Speaker B:But doing so, you know, kind of shaking up your world, even if you force yourself to do it for two weeks time, where you write yourself a brand new lifestyle like you top to bottom from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep.
Speaker B:What is your dream lifestyle?
Speaker B:Are you living that right now?
Speaker B:Probably not even close.
Speaker B:Not even close.
Speaker B:There are so many little changes that we can be making that are going to get us closer to that.
Speaker B:And once you start that trajectory, it's addictive and you can't stop.
Speaker B:And then you're going to the things that don't serve you are going to be so obvious and you're just going to repel them.
Speaker B:It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker B:And I want to keep helping.
Speaker B:I've been working really closely with my mentorship students on this.
Speaker B:I've been sprinkling this content in over the last three years, four years of my workshops.
Speaker B:And it's always been so kind of eye opening for the people there because they're like, you know, most of them started following me when I was, you know, like at the peak of my burnout.
Speaker B:They're like, how do I get to have 10 photo shoots a week?
Speaker B:Teach me how to be book, Teach me how to be booked.
Speaker B:So I'm, I now I have these same people that have been following this trajectory of me coming into my workshops and I'm like, slapping them across the face.
Speaker B:Not literally.
Speaker B:Like, my lawyer told me I can't do that anymore.
Speaker B:Those damn restraining orders really waking them up to the fact that, like, I'm not living, I'm not living the life that I.
Speaker B:That lights me up and makes me a better person for myself, for my partner, for my kids.
Speaker B:I'm making myself sick.
Speaker B:And it's nobody's fault, but my own kids are no excuse.
Speaker B:Like, in fact, that is your excuse to change your life.
Speaker B:And so this workshop is, it's.
Speaker B:It's two very intense sessions and they're independent of each other.
Speaker B:You can come to just one or both.
Speaker B:They're two and a half hours and it is a.
Speaker B:Like, in your face.
Speaker B:Like, we are going to.
Speaker B:You are actually going to go through your life, life and nitpick it and then we're going to build back in.
Speaker B:What do you want your work to say?
Speaker B:What do you want your work, your work to be now?
Speaker B:How do we create a life around that?
Speaker B:And so I am really like, oh, I can't wait for it.
Speaker B:I've had the content written for.
Speaker B:It's been done.
Speaker B:Which this is not me.
Speaker B:Like, usually I'm refining, refining, refining.
Speaker B:It's been done.
Speaker B:And I'm like, should I do another one sooner?
Speaker B:I just, like, I'm ready to.
Speaker B:I'm ready to do it.
Speaker B:It's going to help creatives that are feeling really, really stuck and scared right now to change all of the things that aren't serving them and actually be hopeful about the future because their life and their work is going to start working for them and not against them.
Speaker B:And you're not going to have to worry as much about.
Speaker B:I mean, as humans, it's our human nature.
Speaker B:We're always going to be a little bit worried, especially in today's political climate.
Speaker B:We don't know what's.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We don't know what's going on, but.
Speaker B:Or we do, and that's what scares us.
Speaker B:But it is really powerful when you really dial in on yourself, what lights you up because your personal peace and the domino effect that.
Speaker B:That has a game changer for everyone that's in your life.
Speaker B:It's not just for you.
Speaker B:It's for, it's for your family, it's for your best friends when they see that you're living like this.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:They want to know how they want to do it.
Speaker B:They want to, they want to be able to offer that same kind of light in the World.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Domino effect is a beautiful thing.
Speaker B:So I'm really excited to continue to help photographers, especially photographers who are just in complete, like, code red panic mode right now.
Speaker B:A lot of them, even the ones that aren't saying it, they're, you know, you can know, notice the posts and things like the desperate sales and.
Speaker B:Yeah, we, we want to, we want to rid you of that energy and start being a magnet for the stuff that lights you up, because that's what lights everybody up.
Speaker B:And the world needs more of that.
Speaker A:Burnout is not a flex.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:I used to think so.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, everybody, everybody does at some point.
Speaker A:I'm so busy.
Speaker A:Oh, I couldn't possibly.
Speaker A:I'm so busy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's, it's just not a flex.
Speaker A:And I've, I've gone through that burnout cycle several times, and when I hear you talk about it, you know, you get that.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker A:Yeah, I remember.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:Oh, how awful.
Speaker A:That was physic.
Speaker A:Literally, physically, what it does to you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So the thing that always gets me and I've, I, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't in some part of that.
Speaker A:I've noticed over myself in the, over the past six months or so that I used to be much happier year.
Speaker A:And, and I don't say that to be like, I, I just sit in the corner balled up all day long.
Speaker A:I just like, where did, where did things slip away?
Speaker A:I don't necessarily feel the desperation from a business standpoint, but something's out of balance, out of harmony.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it takes that really hard look, and sometimes it's a really hard look in the mirror to say, oh, oh, yeah, I guess I could go for that walk.
Speaker A:I, I could get up from my desk instead of sitting here for 10 hours.
Speaker A:What's the one thing that you see with your students that you try to protect in them?
Speaker A:Because so often students want to radically shift everything so they can replicate what it is that you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, and that's exactly it, is that there is no one way.
Speaker B:And your dream life, life should, can and should be completely different than mine.
Speaker B:Same as your work.
Speaker B:There, there's.
Speaker B:Your lifestyle should be so customized.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There is no artist, no paid artist on this planet that should be doing it the same as another one.
Speaker B:Everything has to be customized.
Speaker B:There's no sense in, in, you know, you're, you're in a creative industry, for crying out.
Speaker B:Why, why do we do this to ourselves?
Speaker B:Why do we put ourselves into a 9 to 5 schedule.
Speaker B:9 to 9 to 9 schedule.
Speaker B:In my case, like, why do we do that to ourselves?
Speaker B:Like, we wanted a different alternative life.
Speaker B:Why are we conforming?
Speaker B:Why are we.
Speaker B:And there's this.
Speaker B:I make people watch this.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:I have to save this for my workshop.
Speaker B:I can't say it, but I make people watch this video and it just, it's a Pixar short.
Speaker B:And you know, those always get you.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And it's essentially about how you know those.
Speaker B:So the world just tries to beat all of your originality out of you.
Speaker B:And it's a, it's a, it's a fight.
Speaker B:You're like, you're really standing against something and working hard to maintain your individualism and your creativity and to not, you know, have all of the life sucked out of you by, you know, what's expected of us.
Speaker B:But it is just a mindset shift.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And that sounds, that's another one of those, you know, cliches that just change your mindset.
Speaker B:Oh, is it that easy?
Speaker A:Just be happy, would you?
Speaker B:Well, just be happy.
Speaker B:Just like as, as my husband always likes to say, just relax.
Speaker B:Oh, relax.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm sorry, he's no longer with us.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Groom overboard.
Speaker B:He's getting better.
Speaker B:About that.
Speaker A:Is there a piece of advice that you used to give your students that you don't anymore because you no longer believe it?
Speaker B:It was really just the system, I think, that I was teaching.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I think it was more like the, the schedule.
Speaker B:I, I used to kind of preach the schedule.
Speaker B:And I didn't say that it had to look a certain way.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, you have a schedule for yourself so that you stay committed and you stay.
Speaker B:And I, I understand why I said that, but now that I've seen the other side of things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So much better.
Speaker B:And, and, and for, for women especially, you know, we operate on a very different cycle.
Speaker B:So every week of the month looks different for our hormones.
Speaker B:And, you know, this week I need to be in the sun and doing nothing.
Speaker B:Next week is my productivity week.
Speaker B:And learning how to honor those ebbs and flows is so, so, so, so powerful and such a beautiful thing for just general life satisfaction and for productivity and for creativity and for your relationships with others.
Speaker B:So that, that's probably the, the biggest, is like moving away from this.
Speaker B:Okay, I'm going to do, you know, every day at 10am I'm going to do this thing and then every day at 3pm I'm going to do this thing like that that is just, it's impractical, first of all, but it's really doing us a disservice.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:It can very easily backfire, especially.
Speaker B:Especially for.
Speaker B:For women.
Speaker A:I've heard Su Bryce talk about, you know, the daily ritual that you have in first self value.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're just grounding yourself.
Speaker A:Yes, but she says the same thing.
Speaker A:There is no one way to do it.
Speaker A:There's no one set time.
Speaker A:Just being active doesn't mean you have to go to the gym and be on a treadmill.
Speaker A:Just move your body if you need to move your body.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So I think that just the act of calling it out to people and giving them permission, I.
Speaker A:I got all these phrases I know, I know, I hate using.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Overused.
Speaker A:Over overused.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's true.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But just highlighting to people that all the heavens, all the hells are inside of them and they can choose what they want.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So what's something that you see in new photographers that you wish you still had?
Speaker A:Is there something that you admire in new photographers?
Speaker A:Sobriety.
Speaker A:Energy.
Speaker B:I mean, that's.
Speaker B:I don't think that's just new photographers.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just, you know, young photographers.
Speaker B:It changes over the years.
Speaker B:Energy, energy, energy.
Speaker B:But in more seriousness, I will say the.
Speaker B:The ignorance.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because when you don't know the rules yet, you know, I would look at my early work, and at the time that I shot it, I'm like, wow.
Speaker B:Like, I.
Speaker B:I just started this.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I can't even believe how incredible I am at this.
Speaker B:So, like, blind ignorance and confidence, like, absolutely.
Speaker B:But it was such a beautiful thing because what happened to my work?
Speaker B:Even though at that point it was technically horrendous, like, absolutely.
Speaker B:But then I got to be a better photographer and my shit got boring.
Speaker B:Like, boring.
Speaker B:And even later into my career, even like 12 to 13 years into my career, then I tapped into different, you know, a different audience.
Speaker B:Like, my audience changed when I.
Speaker B:When I got brought into kind of the.
Speaker B:The Portrait Masters stage and I had the opportunity to speak on that platform and myself, who thinks always that I'm not susceptible to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To trends or my environment and I'm not susceptible to.
Speaker B:My work started to shift a bit and it got a little bit more like glamour.
Speaker B:And I'm like, why is this happening?
Speaker B:Oh, because that's everything around me.
Speaker B:I didn't think that that would happen to me, you know, so.
Speaker B:And then I started to learn, you know, proper Photoshop techniques and pro, like, all of the, like, correct ways to light and do things.
Speaker B:And my Work month by month, got more and more, less and less me and more and more.
Speaker B:Just like, you know, pretty box.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:I lost myself.
Speaker B:Then I started studying, which is so type A of me studying creativity.
Speaker B:None serious.
Speaker A:I need to do creative planning.
Speaker B:I started researching creativity.
Speaker B:It's true.
Speaker B:And when I did that, I'm like, okay, I've got to really, like, restructuring things and start to forget the rules.
Speaker B:Like, the rules.
Speaker B:They always say, like, you gotta learn the rules so you know how to break them.
Speaker B:And I actually disagree.
Speaker B:I don't think you need to learn them.
Speaker B:I don't think you should ever learn them.
Speaker B:Like, really, I mean, as long as you're being a good person and you're, you know, consent.
Speaker B:Learn those rules.
Speaker B:But when it comes to art and photography and like, no, no, you go with feeling.
Speaker B:You go with the vibe.
Speaker B:You go with makes you.
Speaker B:What makes you, like, feel something.
Speaker B:And yeah, like, if there's something you want to learn how to do, learn how to do it.
Speaker B:Like, go seek out.
Speaker B:There's so much information out there.
Speaker B:Learn how to be the best, you know, the best audio guy.
Speaker B:Or learn how you learn whatever you want to learn.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But learn it because you want to learn it and you want to get better at that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:Don't learn it because that's what you're supposed to do.
Speaker B:Because while you're learning the things that you're supposed to do, you're forgetting all of the things that make you you.
Speaker B:And there's just not enough bandwidth in there to handle all of that.
Speaker B:And your work will start to get boring.
Speaker B:So it's important to, like, you know, I think unfortunately, or maybe fortunately it is part of the process of being an artist is like, I had no idea what I'm doing, and my work is so good and I'm awesome to.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:I guess I don't know everything and okay, look, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm learning more.
Speaker B:I still hate my work, by the way.
Speaker B:I'm learning more, but it's starting to look like it could be anybody's.
Speaker B:And that was when I, When I realized that my, my work to me, lost so much unique individualism that was like dropping me into, like, frigid, like a cold plunge.
Speaker B:I'm like, no, nope, nope.
Speaker B:Absolutely not.
Speaker B:Get me out of here.
Speaker B:So, yeah, yeah, the rules, man.
Speaker A:Rules will get you every time.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Don't be boring.
Speaker A:Well, I've seen as I go to different workshops over the years, I love learning.
Speaker A:I love learning from as many people as I can Learn from.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:I take a little bit from here and a little bit from there.
Speaker A:Never really trying to replicate someone.
Speaker A:But there are certain artists and educators that have that thing that resonates with me.
Speaker A:So I'll go seek them out.
Speaker A:You know, I'll understand how their recipe works.
Speaker A:But I like cinnamon, so I'm going to throw cinnamon in this thing.
Speaker A:Right, Perfect.
Speaker B:Yes, that's exactly it.
Speaker A:Like rewriting the recipe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For, for myself.
Speaker A:I think, think the magic that people experience in workshops is that they get to release themselves from the work that they normally do.
Speaker A:They get to release themselves from any preconceived rules or methods that they have to follow.
Speaker A:Because I have to make a 10 image sale.
Speaker A:Therefore I can only use these poses because I know that they'll sell.
Speaker A:And then when they get to a workshop, they're like, oh my God, I can put a light anywhere I wanted.
Speaker A:I had no idea.
Speaker A:And I think there's something freeing in that, that we experience in workshops that we, maybe it's on the plane, the TSA takes it at the check in or something, but we don't go home with that same feeling and then apply it because we forget and we fall right back into the old habits.
Speaker B:Well, it's really.
Speaker B:I mean, you're so right.
Speaker B:You're so right.
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:It's interesting when people come into, to my workshops because they get like, they get a little wide eyed because I'm like, I don't want to.
Speaker B:Even if it's a photo shoot workshop, a shooting workshop, and we're all photographing the same model on the same set, your image better look different than yours.
Speaker B:It doesn't need to look, you know, there.
Speaker B:You have so many different elements at play here.
Speaker B:Your, your perspective, your camera settings, your own personal style.
Speaker B:Like, you know, are you shooting from the floor and shooting of, are you shooting through fabric?
Speaker B:I want everybody's images to look different because you know, when you go to workshops you like, which are so important to do because the community, first of all, like when you're an artist, you're more likely to be a little bit of a, you know, a shut in as they are.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the community aspect is extraordinarily important.
Speaker B:Just like you need to be around that energy, you need to feel that excitement around your peers.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And then going to workshops where I always tell people when you're looking for inspiration for your art, like there's, there's inspiration and there's replication.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So you have to, you know, if I were to buy a Louis Vuitton bag on, you know, Canal street in New York that was like, Louis Vuittonier or whatever.
Speaker B:It's the same, you know, they're imitating one specific product that's an imitation.
Speaker B:And photographers and artists, we.
Speaker B:We want so badly sometimes for somebody to tell us what to do because we get a little bit, like, lost.
Speaker B:And they'll come to my workshops or they'll come to shooting day at the Portrait Masters or whatever and be like, okay, what do I do?
Speaker B:And I'm like, I'm not telling you what to do.
Speaker B:In fact, I had somebody complain about that once because I didn't, like, tell her what to do.
Speaker B:Like, that's not what I teach.
Speaker B:Like, no, no, no.
Speaker B:Like, what do you want to do?
Speaker B:But it's so important to go to these workshops and take.
Speaker B:Take the thing that you love about that educator.
Speaker B:Like, I love.
Speaker B:Like, I took a.
Speaker B:Way back in the day, I took a Lola Milani workshop.
Speaker B:Actually, it was in Sue Bryce's studio.
Speaker B:Not because I ever wanted to shoot, like, a maternity motherhood portrait.
Speaker B:That wasn't my shtick.
Speaker B:I loved her semi silhouette.
Speaker B:I loved the way she lit.
Speaker B:And I wasn't very comfortable with studio lighting, so I went specifically to learn that piece from her.
Speaker B:And then I come over here and I'm gonna go and do a, you know, workshop with an abstract painter because I wanna learn more about, you know, chaotic lines or, you know, you take something that you love from each educator, from each artist, and you, over time, you melt all of those things into this one very, very unique style.
Speaker B:People should seek out workshops like that, not because they want to emulate or imitate any one artist, because everyone is better than that.
Speaker B:You're better than just being a knockoff of Sue Brice or a knockoff of Lola Milani or a knockoff of Helmut Newton or whoever.
Speaker B:Like, you don't want to be a knockoff.
Speaker B:You take pieces of wisdom that all of these people have to share.
Speaker B:And that's so.
Speaker B:They're so generous with that information.
Speaker B:You eat it all up, and then you add the cinnamon and then the paprika, and then you shake it up in a martini shaker and pour it over ice or whatever.
Speaker B:It's aperitivo time here.
Speaker A:I was like, I know I'm cutting into.
Speaker A:You know, they're up until o' clock.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Exactly to it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Let's start landing the plane so you can start doing shots.
Speaker A:Everything you just said is really important.
Speaker A:I've noticed that people that speak very well, that are eloquent, that have a vocabulary.
Speaker A:You can tell that they've read a lot of books over the years.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:People that have a distinctive photographic style, I believe, have better visual literacy than other folks that want to just replicate.
Speaker A:So whenever somebody, you know, asks me, how do I set this up?
Speaker A:Unless they have literally no idea what they're doing, I'll often say, well, what is it that you're after?
Speaker A:What do you find right here?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What image do you see right here?
Speaker A:Let's help you make that, because that'll be yours, not mine.
Speaker A:So when people start to understand that they can pull from all of these parts of their lives and all the things that they've seen, the Helmut Newton books and the books, and make it their own recipe, their own little goulash of visuals, I think that's where people finally become the photographer that they want to be.
Speaker A:But we're also human, and we forget to do that from time to time.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, are you.
Speaker B:That people actually get to the point where they're.
Speaker B:They're happy with.
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker B:If they'd be on their deathbed, however further they want to be.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:No, I.
Speaker A:I think you do.
Speaker A:I think you finally get to a point where you're like, I give zero fucks anymore what people think about my work.
Speaker A:And I am just doing.
Speaker B:I hear me.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Because while I vacillate between I like my work, I hate my work.
Speaker A:I like my work, I hate my work.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There is this.
Speaker A:There was this point, I'd say, a year or two ago, where I realized that I was only trying to take pictures to impress my other photographer for.
Speaker A:I wasn't doing anything anymore that made me feel good.
Speaker A:And I looked at my feed, and I looked at who I was associating with, and I looked at my clients and I said, none of these is driving me.
Speaker A:I was lying to my clients insofar as, like, this is all the work I do.
Speaker A:But it just didn't feel genuinely me.
Speaker A:I was lying to my photographer friends because I was saying, look how good I am.
Speaker A:But it wasn't the voice that I wanted to project.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I was lying to myself that this is the work that I'm supposed to be doing and that this is what's going to bring me happiness.
Speaker A:And when I finally shifted that I became more creative, I started to like doing the work more.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I took that radical, hard look at myself.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:It was painful.
Speaker A:And it's hard because.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not Niching down.
Speaker A:But you lose clients, you lose friends, you lose this.
Speaker A:As you singularly focus on what it is that you want to bring to the world.
Speaker A:As people attend workshops, learn from you, learn from sue or Jerry or Terry or Mitzi or anybody.
Speaker A:I think you have to go in with some level of intention about what it is that you want to take away.
Speaker A:A little bit of prefix, of course that I want to take from this.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I learned that.
Speaker A:Well, everything.
Speaker A:I think I own everything of yours.
Speaker A:And the.
Speaker A:But the customer service class was very eye opening for me because it made me look at my process.
Speaker A:So thank you for that.
Speaker A:I just publicly want to thank you for changing the way that I.
Speaker B:Pleasure.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You changed my life.
Speaker A:You respond, not going there, but it did.
Speaker A:It did act as a catalyst to me looking hard at the way that I did things.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:As.
Speaker A:As you move forward, as you pivot, as you start to get in front of people and you're doing this and, and holding up the mirror to them, where do you find the point where you extract.
Speaker A:Where do you say, all right, now you can walk on your own two feet.
Speaker A:Feet go.
Speaker A:What does that thing look for in them?
Speaker B:The second that they're completely honest is really, like, good thing.
Speaker B:Then that's all I'm trying to get.
Speaker B:I'm not trying to instill in you that your work should be X, Y or Z.
Speaker B:I'm not trying to instill in you that your work should say a certain thing.
Speaker B:I'm not like, there is infinite numbers of ways to do anything.
Speaker B:I want you to get to the point.
Speaker B:Point where you're actually telling yourself some truths.
Speaker B:And a lot of people don't realize that they're being dishonest with themselves.
Speaker B:I think they're just.
Speaker B:They've played a narrative so hard in their head for so long that they, you know, just start to believe it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:That's, that's the moment.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's when you've actually assessed who you are, what you want your work to say, actually what you want.
Speaker B:Because I'm a women's empowerment photographer.
Speaker B:Okay, and what else?
Speaker B:And what else?
Speaker B:Like, tell me how.
Speaker B:How are you empowering?
Speaker B:How are you?
Speaker B:Like, that's fine, that's great.
Speaker B:But, like, are you just saying that because it's a buzzword?
Speaker B:Because you probably are.
Speaker B:You probably are, right?
Speaker B:Like, are you actually empowering?
Speaker B:How are you doing so.
Speaker B:And then how are you doing so.
Speaker B:And making it yours creatively, artistically, your brand message how is everything completely customized and tailored?
Speaker B:But once you're, once you're, you're done examining all of that, I walk away and it's time for you to do the work.
Speaker B:I mean there's, there's no.
Speaker B:And I think my workshops, which is why they're not like, you know, people want magic pills.
Speaker B:Of course people want the magic pill.
Speaker B:They want the overnight thing.
Speaker B:And I'm pretty transparent about the fact, which is I've been told by my mentors, like my business mentors, like, you know, you couldn't box it a little bit, like a little bit less work for people because you would have a much broader audience.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to dilute it.
Speaker B:I will not dilute it because I don't ever.
Speaker B:Part of the customer service training is I'm not going to sell you a magic pill.
Speaker B:I don't want to just sell you a $99 PDF book that you're never going to read.
Speaker B:Like that doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker B:I to want, want you to know that you have to actually take the information and apply it to your dear, your life, your work.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I don't, I'm not a, I've been told I should probably soften some of the things that I'm putting out there.
Speaker B:Maybe put something with a little like bow tie on it and hand it out as like an easy fix.
Speaker B:The closest I got to that was presets and like that's it.
Speaker B:That's, that's the closest one button thing you're ever going to get from me.
Speaker B:Everything else is going to require you to do some work because that's where all like, that's where the good juice is, is that's where things get really good for you.
Speaker B:And I actually want that for people.
Speaker B:I don't, I never wanted to be an, like an educator just to, you know, because that's what you do as a photographer that's been in the industry for 10 years.
Speaker B:I, I never wanted that.
Speaker B:I actually wanted it to be a help and a guide to people and actually elicit some, some good change.
Speaker B:And yeah, so that's what we're gonna keep doing and now walk away when you're being honest with yourself, yourself.
Speaker B:And the rest is on you.
Speaker A:The country sized populations of people that you have helped would absolutely scream from mountaintops that they get it and they wouldn't have you any other way.
Speaker A:I got one last question for you.
Speaker A:So what is, what is one thing that I didn't ask you that you've been dying to tell someone about.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:I got nothing, Matt.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker A:I drew everything out of you.
Speaker B:Hold back very much.
Speaker B:No, no, you're a, you're a highly efficient interviewer.
Speaker A:Let's get this thing done.
Speaker B:Perfect.
Speaker A:Seriously.
Speaker A:I love, I love the conversations, I love the messaging and I truly believe that without it becoming a trend, this is where the photography industry really needs to go, is relaxing the pressure, feeling a bit more individualistic.
Speaker A:And you're a lighthouse with that philosophy and I really, really appreciate everything you do for everyone.
Speaker A:You're an amazing person and I cannot thank you enough for everything that you do.
Speaker B:Oh, thank you, Matt.
Speaker B:It's truly like genuinely my pleasure.
Speaker B:Having conversations like this is so important.
Speaker B:Not just because we're shut ins we this face to face, but it's really important to open this dialogue for artists because it's important to know that you're not alone in these, these weird things that we all go through, these prisons that we put ourselves in.
Speaker B:If nothing else, I'm, I'm an open book and always happy to help and, and share my vulnerabilities and my fuck ups with everyone so they feel a little bit better about themselves.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's all, it's all about this and the connection and the, and the desire to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just be better and put better out into the world.
Speaker A:I appreciate you so much.
Speaker A:I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Appreciate you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:You got it.
