Ep. 047 - Kristen Kidd: The Power of Pet Photography
Kristen Kidd is all about capturing the heart and soul of the human-pet bond, and she does it with style! This episode kicks off with her sharing her journey as a photographer, author, and magazine publisher, including the launch of her fabulous Dog Mom Magazine. We dive into the nitty-gritty of what it’s like to be a pet photographer—like, how do you get past the fear of failure or deal with difficult moments of grief? Kristen opens up about her background as a social worker and how that helps her connect with clients on a deeper level, making every session feel personal and meaningful. Plus, we explore the hilarious and sometimes chaotic world of working with dogs and how embracing imperfection can lead to some truly magical moments. So grab your pup, settle in, and get ready for some heartwarming insights and a few laughs along the way!
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: Kristen Kidd: The Power of Pet Photography
Episode Number: 47
Publish Date: 2 May 2025
Episode Overview
Kristen Kidd, a Philadelphia-based photographer and author, opens up about her unique approach to capturing the essence of pet ownership in our latest episode. We dive headfirst into her journey, from being a social worker to launching Dog Mom Magazine, a publication that beautifully marries her love for photography and storytelling. It’s a deep dive into the world of dog lovers, with Kristen sharing her experiences of creating coffee table books dedicated to pet rescue, where every purchase supports a good cause.
Throughout our conversation, we touch on the nuances of fear in the creative process. Kristen discusses how she uses her background in social work to not only connect with her clients but also to help them embrace their vulnerabilities. We share laughs, stories, and perhaps a few too many dog puns as we explore how to navigate the chaos of life with our furry companions. This episode is a wonderful reminder that amidst the hustle and bustle, there’s always room for love, laughter, and the joy our pets bring into our lives. Tune in and discover how to find beauty in the imperfect and the power of storytelling through the lens of pet photography.
Takeaways:
- Kristen Kidd blends her social work experience with photography, capturing genuine pet-owner connections.
- Fear is a huge barrier for photographers, but embracing failure is key to growth and creativity.
- Dog Mom Magazine is a unique community platform celebrating the bond between dogs and their humans.
- Kristen's approach to photography emphasizes vulnerability and authenticity over perfection in her work.
- The conversations with clients often reveal deeper stories about their relationships with their pets, adding richness to the photography.
- Finding joy in the chaos of life, like dogs do, can lead to a more fulfilling and present existence.
Links referenced in this episode:
- dogmommagazine.com
- luxsummitstudio.com
- instagram.com/dog_mom_magazine
- instagram.com/lux_summit_studio
- instagram.com/kidd_loves_courageously
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Transcript
Welcome back.
Speaker A:You know, in the world, there's two types of people.
Speaker A:There's dog people and there's cat people.
Speaker A:I am squarely in the dog people camp.
Speaker A:And like most owners, I have nothing short of a billion pictures of my dog Karma on my phone.
Speaker A:And probably only one or two of them are actually any good.
Speaker A:The rest are just these snapshots, but they give me the warm and fuzzies.
Speaker A:Well, my guest today is Kristen Kidd and she's a photographer in the Philadelphia area that specializes in a lot of things, including pet photography.
Speaker A:She's got this amazing knack for creating compelling story driven images of owners and their pets and has been creating coffee table books for years with all proceeds going to charity.
Speaker A:She's taking it a bit further now by launching Dog mom magazine, which combines Kristen's editorial style, photography and her writing into this quarterly publication.
Speaker A:So in this episode, we obviously talk a lot about dogs, but we also explore how her past career as a social worker helps her connect with her clients more deeply and how that helps her tell the stories of that human canine bond.
Speaker A:We dive into the concept of fear and how we have to fail forward if we want to succeed at anything.
Speaker A:We talk vulnerability and shame and why dogs are sometimes better at lice than people.
Speaker A:Kristen and I have seen each other at WPPI for a couple of years now, but it was only this year that I started to get to know her, and I'm so grateful for it.
Speaker A:Kristen is so chill and has such a calming energy that I felt like we've been friends forever.
Speaker A:You're really going to enjoy this because, I mean, really, who doesn't love talking about dogs for an hour?
Speaker A:So sit back, snuggle up with your pup and get some new perspectives on life as Kristen shows you how to find harmony amidst everyday chaos.
Speaker A:So without further ado, let's get on with the show.
Speaker A:I don't know how to start this, so we just fall into conversation and then after the intro, I start us kind of where we're not cursing and we're not going over the preamble and we just kind of get into it.
Speaker A:And I started wherever I started.
Speaker B:Okay, great.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So you were saying, you were saying I'm vibing and mellowing and yes, I am vibing and mellowing.
Speaker B:And what am I photographing?
Speaker B:I'm primarily photographing pets.
Speaker B:It ends up being pets I attract just by default.
Speaker B:I attract a lot of, like, dog moms, dual income, no kids kind of thing.
Speaker B:But it is all over the map.
Speaker B:I Would love to just.
Speaker B:If there was a better SEO that included pets as family, then I would just say family.
Speaker B:But almost all of my families have pets.
Speaker B:And my joke is like, you know, when I do style consults and, and prep people for their session, then I show them all these samples and different things and my joke is like, I swear I do photograph families that also don't have pets.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker A:I just not going to see any of them.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:We're just going to rent some pets, we're going to borrow some pets.
Speaker B:You know, yesterday's session was really amazing as well.
Speaker B:It was four kids, four dogs and the parents.
Speaker B:The kids ranged in age from 13 to 2 and the pets ranged from Great Dane to Cavalier King Charles.
Speaker B:It was fantastic.
Speaker A:I'm starting to sweat now, just the anxiety of all of that because in my studio I'm used to having one adult.
Speaker A:No babies, no kids, no weddings, no, no pets or anything like that.
Speaker A:So what you're talking about makes me want to peel my skin off.
Speaker A:Because thinking about trying to handle all of that at once, I, I can't wait to dig into this because I didn't.
Speaker A:I kind of knew you were a pet photographer, but I know nothing about it.
Speaker A:Have I taken pictures of people with their pets?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But to do it over and over and over takes a certain personality.
Speaker A:I love my dogs.
Speaker A:I have a great time with them.
Speaker A:Other people's dogs?
Speaker A:No chance.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker A:They don't respect me, they don't like me.
Speaker A:They've read my Instagram.
Speaker A:They don't like the captions that I use.
Speaker A:These dogs are bastards, right?
Speaker A:So they come into my studio and they just take over.
Speaker A:How do you deal with all of that?
Speaker A:Forget the humans for a second.
Speaker A:Let's.
Speaker A:Let's talk about dogs, right?
Speaker A:Because that's everybody's favorite subject.
Speaker A:So how do you deal with dogs?
Speaker A:How do you deal with the unruliness, the well behaved ones, the poorly behaved ones, the puddles of whatever they leave behind?
Speaker A:How do you deal with all of this?
Speaker B:Oh, I love this.
Speaker B:I love this.
Speaker B:I'm actually going to flip the question and start the answer with humans.
Speaker B:My background is where I opened my studio.
Speaker B:I was a social worker for 13 years.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:And the interesting thing is that human behavior and canine behavior are actually very similar.
Speaker B:Similar.
Speaker B:And so, you know, why are we talking about behavior?
Speaker B:Because behavior is the function of everything that we do.
Speaker B:We behave in a certain way in order to receive a certain outcome.
Speaker B:We all do, no matter what we're doing.
Speaker B:I'm focusing on dogs for this point of the conversation, but it really could be any animals.
Speaker B:The, the behavior, there is a function to it.
Speaker B:And I really value understanding that and appreciating, appreciating that and meeting both humans and pets where they are at and celebrating that.
Speaker B:And that is, that is my job, is to understand what people want to celebrate most in their lives.
Speaker B:I find that people have not had as much of a platform to celebrate the pets in their lives and to elevate them to the status of family member, which is truly the experience of many people, is that their pets are a member of their family.
Speaker B:They're closer to their pets than they are to many different humans.
Speaker B:So being able to honor that, celebrate that, meet the humans and the pets where they're at.
Speaker B:And the cool thing about that, I think, or the coolest thing to me is meeting people and pets where they're at, means that we can just embrace who they are.
Speaker B:It means that I have to embrace the chaos, which I love.
Speaker B:But it also means, and this is why I speak like I was speaking at WPPI on embracing imperfection and embracing our own imperfections.
Speaker B:Because that family that I photographed yesterday with the four kids and four dogs, there was not a portrait in which everyone was beautifully appointed and staring.
Speaker B:No, but they loved it because they.
Speaker B:If you have four kids and you have four dogs, you like crazy, okay?
Speaker B:You're like, you have signed up for this, which means that that's actually what they want to capture.
Speaker B:And I am fortunate enough to have that be the case for pretty much all of my clients.
Speaker B:And so I.
Speaker B:I call it creating an environment of success, which also sounds very social, worky, but we're going to facilitate an environment of success.
Speaker B:And what that means is understanding what people love most and what's most important to them and then just creating a space in which all those things can show up, be celebrated.
Speaker B:People show up and their pets show up kind of at their best.
Speaker B:It also means I'm doing a lot of running around and that my photography does not look as perfect as many other people's photography, but it is deeply meaningful to the people that I serve.
Speaker A:For, for everybody listening.
Speaker A:Kristen and I met very, very briefly two years ago.
Speaker A:Didn't speak.
Speaker A:It was kind of like a, hey, nice to meet you.
Speaker A:This year at wppi, we had a chance to kind of sit and talk for about five or six minutes right before, I think, right before or after you were speaking or right around that time, I really wanted to get you on here and dig In a little bit, because I've heard you use the phrase perfectly imperfect.
Speaker A:And it really struck a nerve with me because as I've done my photography over the years, I went from very polished commercial work to glamour, and it's basically receded in precision.
Speaker A:It's receded in that perfection.
Speaker A:Because like you, I love that imperfect, the raw, the blur, the chaos.
Speaker A:I love capturing that.
Speaker A:Dealing with it is a whole different situation.
Speaker A:I love capture.
Speaker A:So as we were talking, I could tell that connection and that meeting people where they are, seeing them for who they are, is vital to what you're doing now.
Speaker A:Do you feel like that comes from the social work that you did?
Speaker A:Do you feel like that's something you developed as part of photography?
Speaker A:Or is that just core to who you are?
Speaker A:And you've always been this way of trying to dig in and get a little bit closer to someone rather than just have surface conversations?
Speaker B:It's all the above.
Speaker B:Yeah, it really is.
Speaker B:I mean, right down to, like, how I grew up.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Understanding people was a coping mechanism.
Speaker B:So understanding people became a way for me to control what was happening around me.
Speaker B:Developing into a sense of care and being able to have a sort of superpower of reading people and understanding what was happening.
Speaker B:When I walk in a room, like where people were at mentally, emotionally, and all of that good stuff, and then bringing that to the career as a social worker and then all of that being really fine tuned, really fine tuned for like 13 years.
Speaker B:And then I was photographing professionally, like in tandem with that career, as many people do when they're starting out, I was photographing professionally and I knew that I wanted to bring everything that I love most about being a social worker into being a photographer.
Speaker B:And so there's a lot of different things that happen that showed me how to do that.
Speaker B:And once I was able to see how I could take what I loved about connecting deeply and helping others connect deeply with themselves, with what they love, the world around them, and create beautiful, timeless art around that.
Speaker B:Then I was just like, oh, yeah, this is.
Speaker B:This is it.
Speaker B:This is where it's at.
Speaker B:This is where it's at.
Speaker B:And have it be really a therapeutic experience.
Speaker B:And in some ways of us being just kind of like forced to stop and reflect and really lean into what is good in our lives.
Speaker B:And so all of it came together and just built upon it, and built upon it, and build upon it.
Speaker A:I can see how you were successful as a social worker.
Speaker A:I hope you were successful.
Speaker A:I hope you didn't, like, get fired for being A really shitty social worker.
Speaker A:But it seems to be like you've got this very welcoming energy about you.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's a very chill, you're safe with me type of vibe.
Speaker A:And I'm sure that between the social work and the photography and the writing and just being an artist in general, you've got to balance all these roles, but it seems like you're able to stay core to your own personality of that.
Speaker A:I need to get to know you in order for me to do my job better.
Speaker A:Whether that's social work or art or photography or writing whatnot.
Speaker A:Do you feel like you can harmonize all these parts of your life very well?
Speaker B:I mean, I think like most people, we feel like something always dominates.
Speaker B:I don't know that anyone ever finds perfect balance or perfect harmony or anything like that, but there are times where I feel, you know, more in harmony, more in balance, and then times where I feel less and like I have like, no control over what is happening.
Speaker B:Like everything is happening to me.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I really like finding that balance in the sense of I'm not actually a details person.
Speaker B:I'm more of a big picture person and like a visionary.
Speaker B:And it's taken me a lot to learn to appreciate the details and appreciating the details, appreciate systems like.
Speaker B:Which sounds so, like, boring, like, like a.
Speaker B:Systems like those that have to do with anything about living a happy life.
Speaker B:But what I will say is that it can sometimes be easier to have balance and harmony when we can lean into systems a little bit more and create systems that make it easier for us to do what we need to do so that we can be visionaries.
Speaker B:You know, there's always that baseline of like, things that must happen in a day, a week, a month, a year.
Speaker B:You know, like, they have to happen.
Speaker B:And if, if we can kind of accept that and create some sort of structure around it, then I think that that allows us to be able to.
Speaker B:Then, okay, we have that and we can allow our brains and hearts and minds and spirit to be visionaries and to open up to what else is out there, because we kind of have like, other stuff figured out.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:I feel like that's kind of the space that I, that I strive for to operate in.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But then there's like curveballs.
Speaker B:So, you know, curve balls.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I guess this is happening now.
Speaker B:So there's like the, the systems that can kind of create that balance and then we can let our minds and hearts wonder and, and think big and dream big.
Speaker B:And then there's like the.
Speaker B:I guess this is happening.
Speaker A:Have you ever struggled with, with attention?
Speaker A:Have you ever struggled with ADHD or add?
Speaker A:Is that part of it?
Speaker A:Only because I, because systems, for me, as someone that is ADHD and meds for it and all the therapy and all the things, if I didn't have systems in my life, I wouldn't be able to function.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:Yeah, probably less systems, more well defined routines.
Speaker A:I need to have things in a certain order or else it devolves into chaos.
Speaker A:And I think you're starting to notice over the theme of all these, these statements that I make is that chaos and I have this love, hate relationship.
Speaker A:And I'm always curious when I talk to other artists who more often than not have some level of chaos in their lives and they struggle with maintaining some sense of order.
Speaker A:I'm always curious, like, is that something that even bothers you?
Speaker A:Is that why you create the systems?
Speaker A:Or do you do it for out of efficiency?
Speaker B:Oh, I love that.
Speaker B:I love all of that.
Speaker B:And there's like 10 questions in that question, and I love that.
Speaker A:Welcome to Generator.
Speaker B:Yeah, I know, right?
Speaker A:Answer anything you want.
Speaker B:The through line of, of what you're, what you're asking and, and what you're saying.
Speaker B:Your, Your first question about adhd.
Speaker B:I, you know, I've questioned that more recently.
Speaker B:I don't think so.
Speaker B:It just, it, it also shows up really differently in women a lot of times, and so it can be more latent as well.
Speaker B:So I've become very good at recognizing it in others.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:My favorite hobby is armchair diagnosis.
Speaker B:It's great, but I don't think so.
Speaker B:I don't think that that's a thing for me, however, because I'm big picture and not details.
Speaker B:Things like system and organization and things like that are just like, not interesting to me.
Speaker B:They're not as.
Speaker B:They're not novel enough, you know, like, no, let's think, let's drape, let's do that.
Speaker B:That's so much more fun.
Speaker B:But you gotta run a business.
Speaker B:And so you better, you better warm up to some stuff that's not as sexy and fun.
Speaker B:A part of me loves chaos.
Speaker A:Yeah, it sounds it, but.
Speaker B:But it, it is controlled chaos, though.
Speaker B:I mean, I would use an example of my photo sessions as one of the ways that I really enjoy chaos because there is.
Speaker B:There is structure there.
Speaker B:Even if it doesn't seem like there is, there is.
Speaker B:I have done all the legwork before the.
Speaker B:I know, I know.
Speaker B:I have gone and met the four dogs.
Speaker B:I'VE met the.
Speaker B:The four kids.
Speaker B:I know the space that I'm photographing in.
Speaker B:If it's not in my studio.
Speaker B:I know triggers for the animals and the humans.
Speaker B:I know things that they love.
Speaker B:So I know what I want to incorporate, what would be a lot of fun that they'll engage with in order to bring up what is their best selves, what will help their best selves show up.
Speaker B:And so that's all the structure.
Speaker B:That's all the, like, the systems and.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And we have, like, we have a finite amount of time in which all of this is going to happen, and then it's just like, let it go.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like, just.
Speaker B:Just see what happens.
Speaker B:Like, I'm going to.
Speaker B:I'm going to put all of this in place.
Speaker B:It is an educated guess.
Speaker B:It's a really good educated guess based on a lot of good information.
Speaker B:And then we're just going to show up.
Speaker B:And sometimes things that are even better than I ever could have imagined are going to show up.
Speaker B:And sometimes it's going to be really difficult, and it's going to be a slog, and I'm going to have to figure out as I go along.
Speaker B:And sometimes things are going to show up that really surprise me just in any way.
Speaker B:I love the surprises.
Speaker B:And so that kind of chaos where I'm not going to be in it forever, there is a limit to this experience.
Speaker B:I've done a lot of legwork to make it successful.
Speaker B:And there's a finite number of directions that the chaos is gonna go.
Speaker B:So it's controlled chaos in a way.
Speaker B:And then it's just like, let's just see what happens.
Speaker A:It seems like you're able to capture these relationships between the owners and the pets very well.
Speaker A:You're able to capture that thing that we have with animals where they are family members.
Speaker A:I don't like calling dogs fur babies, but, you know, like, there is that.
Speaker A:That connection with our.
Speaker A:Our pets that is really hard to describe because they've got a personality of their own.
Speaker A:And we're trying to do our best to communicate with an animal.
Speaker A:You seem to be able to capture that communication really well.
Speaker A:How do you do it?
Speaker B:75% of the work is done before I pick up my camera.
Speaker B:And it is that conversation.
Speaker B:The conversation is.
Speaker B:It's very intentional, and it leads to a very specific place.
Speaker B:And the series of questions that I will ask anyone, one of my favorites is tell me about a time when your dog was there for you in a way that other human that others couldn't be there for you, maybe in a way that other humans couldn't be there for you.
Speaker B:Where were you?
Speaker B:What was happening?
Speaker B:What was going on?
Speaker B:And how did you feel most loved and supported by this creature?
Speaker B:And what happens from a question like that is they're going to tell me about that specific time.
Speaker B:They're going to take me to that place and tell me a story, but they're also going to, without knowing it, describe vignettes to me, scenes.
Speaker B:And it's my job to not only take them to a place, this question leads them to a place of really understanding the full value of what's going to be happening for them.
Speaker B:They may call me and just be like, I just love my dog and I want a photo of my dog.
Speaker B:You know, like, that's where we all.
Speaker B:We start there.
Speaker B:A lot of us start there.
Speaker B:And then in a good experience, we're really shown, like, really what it means to us.
Speaker B:They are connected to the most meaningful part of their relationship and the most powerful part of their relationship through telling me that story.
Speaker B:And in that story, I was just talking to a woman last week who told me two stories that were pretty similar.
Speaker B:But a woman told me that she came into possession of her sister's dog after her sister passed away.
Speaker B:This dog has helped her to stay connected.
Speaker B:It is her final living connection to her sister.
Speaker B:And they both loved her sister.
Speaker B:And on the.
Speaker B:During the times that she was grieving the loss of her sister, the dog was there, you know, with her, and the dog was there, like, so that we will go as deep into it as understanding.
Speaker B:And hearing that the dog would come seek her out and sit next to her and put her little paws on her lap and look into her eyes and give her kisses.
Speaker B:So she's taken to that moment.
Speaker B:She's taken to the meaning of that moment.
Speaker B:But I also then understand that that's what I'm photographing.
Speaker B:And so I create a scene in which I'm not doing it.
Speaker B:I'm like, not like, hey, let's do the one where after your sister passed away and you're sitting there, and then the dog comes up and gives you a kiss.
Speaker B:You know that moment, that really hard moment for you.
Speaker B:Let's do that one.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:I know that the dog's gonna come up and give her a kiss, and it's going to look lovingly into her eyes.
Speaker B:And so I'm just setting up.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:We're gonna sit here on the floor.
Speaker B:You're gonna give her some pets.
Speaker B:You're gonna tell her thank you for who she's been in your life, you're going to snuggle her and then that's just gonna show up and she's connected to that meaning.
Speaker B:And so that's what we create.
Speaker B:So that's, that's how it happens.
Speaker B:And like shooting, like not to get into the weeds, but shooting in a way that's like we can see the loving look in the dog's eyes and she wants that and really can see the loving look in her eyes and like always creating those anchors and those touch points so that, you know, when 10 years from now, 15 years from now, she can feel the presence of that creature in her life.
Speaker A:The end of life portraits with, with animals.
Speaker A:I've had the good fortune of helping some people through that and creating some of these images for them that are, I think most owners, we know that time is coming and we'll probably get some pictures with the dog.
Speaker A:But I had a dog.
Speaker A:She was a kind of a mutt, a little bit of a rottweiler mutt that was named Naima.
Speaker A:And when she, when I was losing her at the end of her life, I had some pictures done, me and her, around the property by my pond and hanging out.
Speaker A:And they mean so much just because it's this closure that I haven't had with other animals that I've owned.
Speaker A:Do you do much of that?
Speaker A:Do people come to you for that?
Speaker A:Or is it more kind of in midlife and we're just having a great time.
Speaker A:Do you do any of that?
Speaker A:End of life?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I call them legacy sessions.
Speaker B:Legacy sessions, yeah.
Speaker B:And I love to do them as often as I can and I will nearly move mountains to make it happen.
Speaker B:It's like the one, like most of my clients, I'm like, okay, this is my availability, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:When someone calls me and tells me that their dog has cancer and they think they have like two more weeks, maybe four more weeks and they would really love to have this.
Speaker B:I'm like photographing on days and times when I do not.
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:And if it's a week or if it's a week or two out, I'm like you, you pick up that phone and you give me a call if things start to look different and if I can, I'm going to be there.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:I also have a history of studying grief and grief work and I'm also extremely comfortable with it.
Speaker B:My mom is a retired geriatric nurse.
Speaker B:My first memories were spending time in a long term care facility and even as a.
Speaker B:As a child sitting with people who were actively dying and, you know, and my mom and I share this belief and this comfort, this comfort with the belief and knowledge that there are much worse things than exiting this life in this world.
Speaker B:So I think I believe in universal intelligence.
Speaker B:And for me, I believe that part of my purpose in this world is to help people navigate that through the imagery that we do, because I've had a stunning number of humans and pets, but.
Speaker B:But humans have really catastrophic events in timely circumstances that have involved having a photographic session with me.
Speaker B:And I'm like, well, I guess this is what I'm supposed to be doing, which I.
Speaker B:I love.
Speaker B:I love, because I really love helping people understand grief, lean into it and have a space for that.
Speaker B:I just had, if you'll indulge me.
Speaker B:This is so meaningful to me.
Speaker B:Shut up, Kristin.
Speaker B:So my last coffee table book that.
Speaker B:That I did, raises money for rescue and all this other stuff.
Speaker B:Amazing couple, Kayla and Michael, and their two dogs, Ham and Jerry.
Speaker B:So they came in, they had a session.
Speaker B:Absolutely adored them.
Speaker B:Great experience for all, including me.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker B:They're in the book.
Speaker B:They come to the book release party, and two weeks after the book release party, they both are hit by a bus as pedestrians.
Speaker B:She lives, he doesn't.
Speaker B:And a couple weeks ago, she just booked another session with me, and that was to be a part of an upcoming Dog mom magazine that the theme is resilience.
Speaker B:And she wanted to celebrate how her dog Ham has supported her through the grief of losing her husband suddenly, like, a couple months ago.
Speaker B:And part of what she wanted from her session.
Speaker B:And I, you know, I.
Speaker B:I was prepping her for the session, I was like, you know, whatever it is that you would love to do, whatever would be meaningful.
Speaker B:And as much as you would like to incorporate Michael into it or as little.
Speaker B:Whatever feels for you.
Speaker B:We talked about that.
Speaker B:And then when I showed up, she wanted to go back to the spot where it happened.
Speaker B:She wanted to go back to where they were both hit by the bus, which was like a block from her house.
Speaker B:And I think that for a lot of people, that might be difficult to understand how someone, help someone would want to revisit that space.
Speaker B:Being comfortable and feeling such a sacred honor of journeying through people's grief with them and being allowed to be in that sacred, deeply vulnerable space.
Speaker B:It just brought me joy to just easily be like, great, let's go.
Speaker B:Come on, let's go.
Speaker B:And to be there and to stand there and say, what is it about this that is meaningful for you.
Speaker B:What do you love about this?
Speaker B:Being here in this space?
Speaker B:What is it that you want from this and to do that and to not again, perfectly imperfect.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:I did not lament whether or not I was gonna actually get the photo that she wanted from it.
Speaker B:I just took in the scene, understood it as best I could, and trusted that whatever it was that she wanted from that was gonna show up.
Speaker B:And it did, aside from me.
Speaker B:So, you know, that seems to be a big part of what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker B:And it brings me a lot of honor to be able to do that.
Speaker A:It sounds like the universe has definitely placed you exactly where you need to be.
Speaker A:Not only with your art, but just in the empathy that you can bring to people.
Speaker A:And some of that understanding of grief, it's something that most people stay away from.
Speaker A:It makes us feel kind of oogie to talk.
Speaker A:We just don't know what to say.
Speaker A:We're always sorry, we're always sad.
Speaker A:We try to be empathetic.
Speaker A:But unless you're exposed to it a lot, right, Whether you're a social worker or a counselor of some sort, unless you're building that skill, it feels weird for a lot of people to be in that space because the vulnerability is, I mean, it's paper thin.
Speaker A:Things can go sideways really, really quickly.
Speaker A:And to be able to stay in that space and not only just be there for someone, be present, but also capture the moment is.
Speaker A:Is a gift that you're giving to people.
Speaker A:It's wonderful.
Speaker A:I, I.
Speaker A:Honor is a great word, right?
Speaker A:You're honored to be able to do something like that for someone.
Speaker A:And it's relatively rare that as photographers we get into those types of situations.
Speaker A:Happens to everybody at one point in their career.
Speaker A:But able to do it over and over and over is really just something special.
Speaker A:Are those types of moments the impetus behind starting Dog mom magazine that you want to bring some of these stories and these personalities, both human and canine, to life for people.
Speaker A:Tell me about how you started this magazine.
Speaker B:It started as kind of a spinoff of the Coffee Table books.
Speaker A:Now that was for the PSPCA that you were doing the Coffee Table.
Speaker B:That's the most recent one.
Speaker B:So I do a different rescue every time.
Speaker B:Benefited a lot of rescues in the Philadelphia area and the profits from the sales of the book Good rescue.
Speaker B:There's about 50 people who are featured in each book.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's wonderful.
Speaker B:It's about a year long project.
Speaker B:During the last Coffee Table book, I was doing this photo session with a 20 something single woman and her, her, her pibby, her pit bull mixed.
Speaker B:We were having a blast.
Speaker B:And we were joking around and saying, you know, these should be in a magazine.
Speaker B:Because she looked like she was like in some sort of lifestyle magazine.
Speaker B:She's like boho chic and like being adorable with her dog.
Speaker A:Coffee or morning macrame and plants and yes, yes, Noah Kahan playing in the background.
Speaker A:Yeah, I totally get it.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yep, insert all of that here.
Speaker B:So we were joking about it.
Speaker B:We were like, oh, this should just be in a magazine.
Speaker B:And we're like the OGPA magazine.
Speaker B:And we're like, oh, we need that.
Speaker B:We need that in our lives.
Speaker B:Well, of course it already exists.
Speaker B:And then we're like, wait a second.
Speaker B:And I began to do some research and I could not believe it did not exist.
Speaker B:And if you're a dog mom, if that's like your, if you're like a part of that, that culture, unfathomable that this does not exist.
Speaker B:So I was like, well, this is going to happen.
Speaker B:So I modeled it.
Speaker B:I figured, why I reinvent the wheel.
Speaker B:And I just took the coffee table book model and made it smaller and more approachable.
Speaker B:And so I'm making it a quarterly magazine, making it a luxury magazine, making it a lifestyle magazine.
Speaker B:And I already have from having six coffee table books.
Speaker B:I have so much content to already work with.
Speaker B:But I don't really want to use that for the magazine.
Speaker B:I want to have fresh new stories.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:But promoting it is easy in that sense.
Speaker B:So yes, to answer your question, it is about.
Speaker B:So subscriptions raise money for rescue.
Speaker B:So there's always like a philanthropic angle.
Speaker B:It's about building community.
Speaker B:Dog moms love to be a part of this, this community.
Speaker B:They do.
Speaker B:They want to just luxuriate in how much they love their pups and talk about how great they are.
Speaker B:And so creating the sense of community and then sharing, just like in the books, sharing in our experiences that we are not alone in how much we love the creatures in our lives and that we're not alone in our experiences as humans, partially because our dogs are there with us and for, but also through sharing these stories, we see, you know, I'm not the only one who went through cancer.
Speaker B:I'm not the only one who went through a really messy divorce.
Speaker B:I'm not the only one that has depression, anxiety, or I'm selling.
Speaker B:You know, my dog helped me journey through to get my PhD and now I have my dream job, the highest highs and the lowest Lows, putting that all together and celebrating those stories together.
Speaker B:So that's, that's the idea, that's the concept behind it.
Speaker B:And then I'm hoping, just like any other magazine, I'm just kind of opening the door for people to be able to advertise their businesses.
Speaker B:We have a lot of branding clients.
Speaker B:Some of them are pet centric brands, some of them aren't, but are in line with Dog Moms.
Speaker B:So being able to offer that as well and just see how far it goes, see where it takes us, it's.
Speaker A:Such a cool concept.
Speaker A:And I know I've, I've written for a bunch of magazines in the past, I've never started my own.
Speaker A:And I know that the logistics that go into it are phenomenal.
Speaker A:There's an infinite number of possibilities to create niche magazines.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We all grew up in skateboarding zines or, you know, photo zines or whatever.
Speaker A:And now with independent publishing being such a large industry, we don't have to wait for Conde Nast to come out with a Dog mom magazine.
Speaker A:We can do it ourselves.
Speaker A:So with all of that, the writing that goes along with it, are you, as you're interviewing people, is this a questionnaire that they fill out or are you filming this and then playing the information from that?
Speaker A:The reason I ask is you strike me as someone that is so connected and into the conversation, I can't imagine you with just a pad of paper going, okay, now say that again so I can write it down right click.
Speaker A:Honestly, how are you capturing these stories?
Speaker A:Is it videotape?
Speaker A:Do you have a really good memory?
Speaker A:Because I can't remember your name half the time.
Speaker A:Like we've been on this interview for half an hour and I'm like, I.
Speaker B:Don'T know who you are.
Speaker A:I don't remember anything.
Speaker A:So how do you do it?
Speaker A:How do you do it?
Speaker B:So I used to record all the conversations and then from.
Speaker B:And also like take notes while I was chatting with them on the phone or whatever, or even in person, at least shorthand notes and put that in my CRM, my database.
Speaker B:And now I don't record the conversations, although it is always great too.
Speaker B:But now for the books more recently, I have taken notes and then I have a Google form that I'll send out with a lot of compelling questions that, that, that I can extrapolate from and pair that with my notes.
Speaker B:So that's what I've done.
Speaker B:More recently for the book, I'm going another direction that I'm super excited about for the next book, which Is Letter to a Friend, in which I'm incorporating handwritten letters photoshopped into the art, which is really meaningful for them and also just very intimate and fun for the magazine.
Speaker B:I don't have a form right now, currently.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Are you laughing at the train in the background?
Speaker B:Can you hear a train?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I live next to the Philadelphia train line or our studio is.
Speaker B:Enjoy that.
Speaker B:So I partially right now is memory notes and then clarifying questions.
Speaker B:Because this.
Speaker B:This is a very early, very young baby project and I again, I'll have a system in line that will probably be a little bit more streamlined and easier at some point.
Speaker B:But right now I'm doing a little bit of winging it.
Speaker B:So particularly for this issue, I think I'm going to be giving them call back and like clarifying some things and just going.
Speaker B:Their stories are so deeply profound and it's.
Speaker B:I kind of have them in my head and I feel like I can write something around it that I feel really good about and then just clarify it with them and make sure that it represents them in the best way.
Speaker B:And because it's the magazine and not the book, there's only a handful of stories that are going in.
Speaker B:So it makes it easier to do that back and forth.
Speaker B:Whereas with the book, if you're doing it, you can't like check with every single person.
Speaker B:So you have to have a really good idea before you go in.
Speaker A:As much as we are a digital culture now, there's nothing like seeing yourself and your dog and an article in a printed magazine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's just.
Speaker A:There's something about it that isn't the same as having an online article or a blog.
Speaker A:It just feels different.
Speaker A:I love the fact that you're doing this.
Speaker A:So a couple logistical questions.
Speaker A:One, magazines.
Speaker A:Where are you getting this?
Speaker B:Let's see.
Speaker B:So it has.
Speaker B:All the logistics has been like the audacity of being like, sure, I'm going to do a magazine.
Speaker B:You have.
Speaker B:So I just want to say, logistically, shit like this, you just have to have this broken brain that just always says, it's going to be fine.
Speaker B:Just, it's going to be fine.
Speaker B:To actually answer your question, the first, the pilot one we did through blurb, you can do magazines through graphy as well.
Speaker B:But with subscription base, having them like shipped out to each individual person as a subscription, that's a whole other thing in itself.
Speaker B:We actually found a local printer who can do it.
Speaker B:We got a couple different quotes from a couple different places.
Speaker B:Found kind of like the same price for the things that we were looking for around the same price, but the clencher was the.
Speaker B:Actually the fulfillment.
Speaker B:And at first, like, we just.
Speaker B:We know nothing.
Speaker B:And like, so fulfillment.
Speaker B:What do you mean exactly by that?
Speaker B:The research I had to do to understand exactly what fulfillment meant in the magazine world.
Speaker B:So I get to that.
Speaker B:So I found a local printer that's called Vizzy.
Speaker B:And local is nice because you can get them on the phone and you can just be like, hey, this is what I need, this is what I want.
Speaker B:And then they'll print them and then they'll fulfill it.
Speaker B:As in they will ship it to each individual subscriber.
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker A:The reason I ask is, yeah, graphy magazines are gorgeous.
Speaker A:Studio magazines are gorgeous.
Speaker A:Or, you know, one off magazine, small batch runs, that sort of thing.
Speaker A:Unbelievable.
Speaker A:But there comes a time where if you're getting more subscriptions and you have the fulfillment and you have this kind of operational chain that you have to go through, it becomes less of a boutique magazine.
Speaker A:And now you're like, oh, shit, I'm a publisher.
Speaker A:I've gone down this road and I saw what they had to go through just in terms of getting the art ready and getting the copy ready and putting it all together in a cohesive way, adding in ads and sponsors and all the things.
Speaker A:It's a ton of work.
Speaker A:Especially if you're doing it all yourself, which I assume it's a team of one or two, perhaps.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The learning curve that's gone along with this, I'm sure is very steep.
Speaker A:So what's the biggest thing outside of now?
Speaker A:Fulfillment.
Speaker A:Because you are clearly an old pro at fulfillment.
Speaker A:That's been the big thing that you've learned in the process.
Speaker A:That has become your kind of closet.
Speaker A:Favorite thing to do.
Speaker B:Favorite thing to do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:I want to say maybe just design off the top of my head aside, I mean, the photographing, the story writing.
Speaker B:The story writing is.
Speaker B:It really brings me so much joy.
Speaker B:That's just a given.
Speaker B:But I do that all the time anyway with all my other work with the magazine aspect, the design elements, really neat.
Speaker B:And I'm a big fan of not reinventing the wheel and templating things as much as possible.
Speaker B:Not to make it the exact same every time, but to make it very user friendly and very adjustable.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So, I mean, honestly, like, I know a lot of people use InDesign, but that's not my jam.
Speaker B:So I honestly, like, Canva is just so easy and it's really.
Speaker B:And it can look very luxurious.
Speaker B:And so why not?
Speaker B:Just why not?
Speaker B:And so finding that.
Speaker B:Finding that kind of style and feel and creating that, and then just, like, tweaking it.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:Just tweaking it.
Speaker B:So that's been.
Speaker B:That's been really neat.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Things that make me laugh are things like the binding of the magazine.
Speaker B:There are magazines, like you said, that have a luxury feel to them and then others that don't.
Speaker B:Getting into, like, the minutia and the details of.
Speaker B:Okay, well, I don't feel like this binding for this magazine is particularly luxurious.
Speaker B:It's just like, is this the conversation I'm having right now?
Speaker A:It's the same thing with, like, paper types.
Speaker A:Your luster, your matte, your deep matte, your super deep matte, your.
Speaker A:Feels like velvet matte.
Speaker A:And you're just like, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't know, like, give me what.
Speaker A:Give me the one that's under a dollar a print.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, a lot of times you get to the point where you're like, I gotta.
Speaker A:I gotta print these magnets.
Speaker A:I have no idea how they're gonna come out.
Speaker A:Let's.
Speaker A:Let's start pretty low on the totem pole.
Speaker A:We can always get better, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That is 100% where.
Speaker B:Where I'm at.
Speaker B:I'm like, let's start with this.
Speaker B:Let us see how it is.
Speaker A:Our.
Speaker B:Our proximity.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We actually had a term in this in social work.
Speaker B:It's called proximity to the goal.
Speaker B:So it was.
Speaker B:It was never about, like, when we would help people, like, work toward their goals.
Speaker B:It was like, you don't just, like, meet the goal.
Speaker B:You don't.
Speaker B:You don't match the goal.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:You celebrate the victory of getting in proximity to it, and you keep getting closer and closer in proximity until eventually you reach the goal.
Speaker A:The dog is better than perfect, right?
Speaker A:At this point.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:Oh, of course.
Speaker B:I mean, that's what.
Speaker B:Again, the.
Speaker B:The talks that you see me do it WPI and everywhere.
Speaker B:It's perfectly imperfect.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Speaker B:Just do it.
Speaker B:The imperfect book that's.
Speaker B:That you wrote, that's published, is better than the draft that never made it anywhere.
Speaker B:Just like, just.
Speaker B:Just do it.
Speaker B:Fail at what you fail at and fail faster and get better.
Speaker A:I'm finding that most of the people that I talk to, most of the photographers that I talk to, we all, at a certain level, stop fearing failure and start to embrace it.
Speaker A:We've gotten past our own ego, where we're like, oh, my God, failure means I suck at everything.
Speaker A:And we start looking at it as saying, well, that taught me something.
Speaker A:I'm going to do that again.
Speaker A:Let me do this new thing.
Speaker A:We start to embrace it and fail forward rather than having it stop us in our tracks.
Speaker A:In photography, what's been one of your biggest failures where you're like, I am never doing that again.
Speaker A:And I learned a ton from that.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:Oh, man, I do, I do.
Speaker B:I'm trying, man.
Speaker B:I'm trying to recall.
Speaker B:I mean, I have a few, but.
Speaker B:Oh, my man, I wish I could recall that right off the top of my head.
Speaker B:Okay, here we go.
Speaker B:So we work with a marketing team at the studio, and we love our marketing team now.
Speaker B:And we do that because we really need.
Speaker B:There is a portion of the studio that does boudoir photography.
Speaker B:And you really need Google Ads and stuff for.
Speaker B:For that.
Speaker B:For that.
Speaker B:Or at least we've found we've never been the photographer that's been like, I get all my leads from Instagram.
Speaker B:I think I hopped on the.
Speaker B:On the Instagram bandwagon too late.
Speaker B:But anyway, so we.
Speaker B:We get.
Speaker B:We get those leads from Google Ads and stuff.
Speaker B:And we.
Speaker B:And I'm also like, never will I ever fully understand running ads.
Speaker B:And I do not want to take the classes to figure it out.
Speaker B:Someone else do it.
Speaker B:My point is.
Speaker B:My point is, a couple years ago, we invested in a marketing team that we were working with previously that was like twice as much, if not more of the price point than most.
Speaker B:And we were hoping we would just see that return of investment because they would be so badass.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And we didn't.
Speaker B:And it was just an absolute drain.
Speaker B:And we'd see some success, right?
Speaker B:We would see some success.
Speaker B:And so we'd want to hold on and believe it was going to be better, but we just kept throwing money into the money pit.
Speaker B:And we did that kind of across the board.
Speaker B:There is like, in business ownership, you do have to spend money to make money.
Speaker A:Got it.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And often it is a hefty price tag, but not always.
Speaker B:And the return of investment, however that is quantified, needs to be quantified.
Speaker B:And so I would say specifically investing in that marketing team, holding on forever and then just draining so much of our resources in that was one of them is like, never again.
Speaker B:But from that as well, was that lesson of, like, we had to really dive into our numbers.
Speaker B:And I'm like, that's not sexy.
Speaker B:That's not fun.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But we really.
Speaker B:We needed to dive into it.
Speaker B:We needed to do that.
Speaker B:Legwork.
Speaker B:And we needed to understand because the bigger picture of failure and the never go back is our overhead was just out of control.
Speaker B:And it was just we were focusing on revenue and not on profit.
Speaker B:And we needed to understand that.
Speaker B:And we're not numbers people naturally it took a lot of work to do that and we were actively failing because all resources were being drained and we were just like throwing money at different things and not seeing the appropriate return investment.
Speaker B:And that was a huge failure, huge failure.
Speaker B:And had to look at it, look it in the eye, face it, figure it out and decide a different approach.
Speaker A:Until you know your numbers, you don't know if you're succeeding or failing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You can feel like a success because you're taking these great pictures and everybody loves your work and you're five stars across Google.
Speaker A:But you can be failing miserably if you're just bringing buckets of money over to the fire and just tossing it all in doing nothing.
Speaker A:I've spent more money on stupid shit over the years that I thought was going to be better.
Speaker A:And if I think back I'm like, I'd probably be in a much better position now than if I hadn't done all of those things.
Speaker A:But again, that's part of the learning process, right?
Speaker A:You don't know what you don't know.
Speaker A:I think everybody tries to search for that magic easy marketing button, right?
Speaker A:And sometimes that's an outside agency, sometimes that's your 13 year old nephew that knows how to use TikTok.
Speaker A:It doesn't really matter, but I think we're all searching for ways to get out of the work that makes us feel kind of gross.
Speaker A:Every artist that I know, most artists that I know don't like to do their self promotion in their marketing.
Speaker A:So we're always who do you use for marketing?
Speaker A:Do you have an out?
Speaker A:Do you outsource it to use a va?
Speaker A:Do you have an agency?
Speaker A:And it's very easy to spend a lot of money.
Speaker A:I'm using this as an example.
Speaker A:Very easy to just spend a lot of money on something that you can do yourself.
Speaker A:And it's kind of that goodwill hunting, right?
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:You spent a hundred thousand dollars on an education that you could have got for $2.50 a night charges at the library.
Speaker A:Same kind of thing with marketing.
Speaker A:If you just kind of sit down and develop the plan.
Speaker A:You really don't need an agency for small business.
Speaker A:You're a big E commerce brand where online advertising is your thing.
Speaker A:You need to be doing AB testing, you need to be doing all this stuff, but for what we do and just trying to promote ourselves to get a little bit more recognition locally, not necessarily nationally.
Speaker A:There's just certain foundational things that you need to do, but you don't know those things until you fail the first time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's, That's a hard lesson to learn, man.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people, a lot of business owners, a lot of photographers learn that lesson, learn those type of lessons, too.
Speaker B:I mean, many, many, many different entrepreneurs and professions.
Speaker B:There's the thing you do, right?
Speaker B:We're photographers.
Speaker B:That's what we do.
Speaker B:We're photographers.
Speaker B:We're not money managers.
Speaker B:We're not COOs.
Speaker B:We're not, you know, we're, we're not all the other things that bookkeepers and tax preppers.
Speaker B:I, I think what I've found is, of course, we always look at where we add value and outsource everything else that we can and what is going to be the return investment in that?
Speaker B:Like, Iris never.
Speaker B:I could not love my bookkeeper and tax person more like, like, I will never, I will never get it right.
Speaker B:I don't know the loopholes.
Speaker B:I don't know the pitfalls.
Speaker B:And everybody else needs to handle that.
Speaker B:And I, and I pay them a good amount of money to do it, but that helps my business run better.
Speaker B:And then there's, you know, one of the, the best forms of marketing is in person networking.
Speaker B:A lot of people hate it, but.
Speaker B:But I love it, and I'm really good at it.
Speaker B:And so building that and flexing that muscle and leaning into that.
Speaker B:And there are a lot of photographers that do like ads really well and they kind of like it or they can just wrap their brain around it.
Speaker B:It will never be something that I do well.
Speaker B:I'm going to be throwing money out the window.
Speaker B:And so I'd rather put that money into someone who actually understands the nuances of Google and SEO and this type of ads and doing that.
Speaker B:So understanding where the value is, what the value is, cutting down, cutting out all the crap that isn't serving us and knowing what that is and we just don't know it.
Speaker B:Like you said, we don't know what we don't know.
Speaker B:You just, you move forward and then you're.
Speaker B:And then you adjust.
Speaker B:You just keep adjusting.
Speaker B:And you said you were talking about entrepreneurs and photographers learning to embrace failure, and it was just making me think and reminding me of.
Speaker B:I think it's either that or you don't have a business.
Speaker B:Like, you can't you simply cannot have a business without learning to embrace failure.
Speaker B:Because you're either going to destroy yourself feeling ashamed of all the things that you didn't get right, or you're going to embrace and adapt.
Speaker B:Those are the choices.
Speaker B:It never stops being scary, in a way.
Speaker B:And so you have to kind of embrace the fear as well.
Speaker B:And all of that's okay.
Speaker B:It's not for the faint of heart, that's for sure.
Speaker A:Adrenaline junkies have that same thing that I think those of us that start businesses have, which is that little bit of excitement, and then it feels really good once you start to see a little bit of success and you get a little bit better at it, a little bit better at it.
Speaker A:And now you're just addicted to that feeling.
Speaker A:I couldn't possibly ever go back to working in a corporate world again.
Speaker A:And it's really hard not to because there are things like benefits and.
Speaker A:And retirement plans.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I love those things.
Speaker A:I don't care about that because I love what I do.
Speaker A:So I've noticed that over the years, going from corporate to commercial work to portraiture to whatever the hell I'm going to be doing next year, all of that is this evolution and this growth that I've experienced just in myself.
Speaker A:Yeah, you've evolved from social worker to photographer and writer and artist.
Speaker A:How do you feel like you're evolving?
Speaker A:And what does the next stage look like?
Speaker B:I think that.
Speaker B:I think I'm in a.
Speaker B:In a space of a lot Of.
Speaker B:Of growing pain, like personal growing pains.
Speaker B:I'm learning a lot of hard lessons, just me within myself and how to.
Speaker B:How to do what I do when life is hard.
Speaker B:And I think that there's an evolution and a growth that's happening within that.
Speaker B:It's very uncomfortable.
Speaker B:It is not a lot of fun.
Speaker B:But I think as I go through that, then it will inform how I write and how I speak and how I teach, which I love.
Speaker B:I love doing all of those things.
Speaker B:Being at WPPI and speaking for graph 8 is.
Speaker B:Is such a blast.
Speaker B:It brings me so much joy.
Speaker A:You look like you're having a great time.
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:I absolutely love it.
Speaker B:And I get to do that in other spaces as well, and not just for photographers, for other entrepreneurs and decision makers and professionals and things like that.
Speaker B:And I really love that.
Speaker B:So I'd love to be speaking and teaching and mentoring more.
Speaker B:I'd love to continue writing.
Speaker B:I think that everything's kind of bringing me in that direction.
Speaker B:I think a lot of the growing pains that I'm Currently in.
Speaker B:Are going to be the.
Speaker B:The basis and for what I'll be sharing, like, with the world moving forward.
Speaker B:And I think it's kind of a.
Speaker B:It seems that most of what I'm meant to be speaking about and talking about is.
Speaker B:Is really in embracing all of, well, one, the conversations that no one else is having and really leaning into those spaces of what do you do when you have to run a business and serve people and you feel awful for whatever reason, whether that could be depression or anxiety or grief or some major change or shift in life, and what do you do with that?
Speaker B:So I think that's a part of the direction.
Speaker B:Evolution that I'm going in is just talking, is just having conversations for a lot of people are really difficult to approach, but for me are comfortable and even like darkly humorous at times.
Speaker B:Like, we can.
Speaker B:We can be safe in a space and reflect on these things.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have to just be like, more pain.
Speaker B:It could actually be something that is illuminating.
Speaker A:And this is something that I've thought about with the influx of social media in our lives, is that we're constantly seeing people with perfect lives and perfect storylines and everything is beautiful, and they're the influencer with the macrame and the plants and the coffee and the latte and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker A:Everybody's perfect.
Speaker A:But there's so much shared experience that we have that we don't talk about.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And this is, I think, why.
Speaker A:Why you and I connected so well is that I love having those conversations where we're dancing around the issue, but we're both saying the same thing, but we're feeling out.
Speaker A:All right, do you have shame around this?
Speaker A:Do I have shame around this?
Speaker A:How deep do we want to go?
Speaker A:Am I going to be vulnerable?
Speaker A:Can I trust you?
Speaker A:So at WPPI last year, there was a bit of a theme about these softer skills.
Speaker A:Where I was seeing it in more seminars.
Speaker A:This year, I didn't see as much of that.
Speaker A:But the speakers that were speaking for Graphi, you, Terry, Mitzi, all of the folks that seem to buy into that same ethos of let's have the more difficult conversations, let's shine a light on some shame and some difficulty so that we can at least start to understand that we're not alone and that there are other people going through this.
Speaker A:Do you feel like those types of conversations lead you to new places in your own career, or do you feel like you take more of the role of guide and social worker, perhaps, where you know how to get Someone through that difficult moment.
Speaker A:Do you always learn something or do you tend to be the guide and teacher in that situation?
Speaker B:I think both things are true.
Speaker B:Hopefully.
Speaker B:It would be my hope that I would.
Speaker B:It's wonderful to learn to learn things and to walk away considering something in a different light, see the opportunity.
Speaker B:There's always an opportunity to be compelled and to grow and so paying attention to that.
Speaker B:I love being the guide and seeing people light up when they consider something in a different light or when they feel that they've been given permission for something, which is a tricky thing to articulate because we don't actually need permission, but we often feel that we do.
Speaker B:And one of the things that brings me the most joy is to create that space in which people, they receive that permission even though they never needed it.
Speaker B:They're able to grant that to themselves because they see a model for something that they didn't see before.
Speaker B:I think that's a big part of it is, you know, we don't take certain risks because if we don't see it work or see the model for how it could work or the path for it, then we get caught up in.
Speaker B:In the risk and in the fear.
Speaker B:So, you know, I love talking about the circuitous path of life and embracing that.
Speaker B:And I love talking about how I am just not the person that, that you would think would be standing in front of people telling them how to run their business or to have a more fulfilling life, because I don't have the boxes checked that so many, quote unquote successful people have checked.
Speaker B:And that I think that it does us a disservice to only be representing and to only be looking in spaces where, well, this person had this trajectory in life that we approve of.
Speaker B:They're like, oh, well, this person, this, this person won all the awards and they have all these accolades and they do X, Y and Z.
Speaker B:Therefore they can, they can stand in front of us and talk to us about what success means and, and all of that and what are the standards for qualifying, where we get our information from and like, who we want to learn from and really like challenging that and thinking about it in a different way.
Speaker B:How can we look at it and how can we think about it differently in.
Speaker A:There is so much to open up about ego, about self awareness and self love.
Speaker A:There's so much that is jumbled in that mix of what we look at as success versus how we see ourselves as succeeding.
Speaker A:And one of those cliche things that, that I read all the time, whether it's A meme, or you see it online, or someone's, you know, throwing it at me is no matter how shitty you feel, I can't imagine that this is exactly how it was written, but.
Speaker B:No matter how shitty you feel.
Speaker B:Paraphrase.
Speaker A:There is someone that's looking at you and wants to be where you are, right?
Speaker A:And if you think you're not succeeding, you are the lighthouse for that person.
Speaker A:And it's humbling and it's also grounding.
Speaker A:And it makes you realize that it's all about perspective.
Speaker A:And when I look at people that I think are doing it right or more successful or I wish I was where they are, I really have to step back and listen to that little Kristen kid on my shoulder and say, are you really measuring yourself against them or are you proceeding down the path that you want to be on?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:And rarely do we stop and think about that.
Speaker A:Are we heading in a certain direction?
Speaker A:Because we're.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I battle this all the time.
Speaker A:I look at people and I go, man, I wish I.
Speaker A:I knew how to get that opportunity.
Speaker A:Or, man, I wish I had that much word of mouth for my business.
Speaker A:Or, man, I wish.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There are so many things that come from that comparison and our own self value and whatever it is that makes us us.
Speaker A:Rarely do we step back and say, am I comfortable with where I am?
Speaker A:Am I getting what I want?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:So hearing you say all of these things, I've noticed that there is this common thread through everything we've talked about, which is this empathy, which is this connection to animals, connection to people.
Speaker A:It's listening more than speaking.
Speaker A:It's understanding.
Speaker A:It's holding space for people.
Speaker A:I've got to believe that you've developed some level of mental chart about canine personalities versus human personalities and why dogs sometimes are so much better than people.
Speaker A:So I think about this for a second.
Speaker A:What are the traits in dogs that you've noticed that you wish more people had?
Speaker A:And it's not this knife and butt thing like we're staying away from.
Speaker B:Come on, let's have the difficult conversations.
Speaker A:That's a whole different podcast yet again.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The first thing that comes to mind is.
Speaker B:Is not speaking.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I hear it time and time and time again.
Speaker B:It kind of goes back to the grief thing a little bit, too, but it's way beyond that.
Speaker B:The first thing that comes to mind is not using words.
Speaker B:And one of the beautiful things that we have as human beings is lexicon and words.
Speaker B:And it's powerful and it can be a superpower.
Speaker B:And I believe in it and I love it as a writer.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It is so powerful and important.
Speaker B:And we have that in a way that no other living being has.
Speaker B:And it's great.
Speaker B:It also can be our biggest downfall and shortcoming is this obsession with using words.
Speaker B:And when I talk to my clients and ask them about, like, what matters most, what they love most, what has meant the most to them, particularly through experiencing.
Speaker B:The ones that have, are talking about experiencing grief is they didn't have to talk to their pet, they didn't have to explain anything.
Speaker B:Their pet didn't ask for any explanations.
Speaker B:They, they couldn't.
Speaker B:It was only what was happening was that creature was there.
Speaker B:And with looks and body language and mere presence was able to provide the greatest amount of comfort that could be imagined.
Speaker B:And we get caught up in what is the right thing to say, what is the wrong thing to say.
Speaker B:And it reminds me of this, this principle, this custom or tradition in the Jewish faith.
Speaker B:And I myself am not Jewish, and so I don't want to bastardize anything.
Speaker B:But in the process of grief, in sitting Shiva, one of the rules I'm going to say, for lack of a better word, is that when you enter the room of the person who is grieving, you are not the first person to speak.
Speaker B:You actually do not speak until the person who is in grief speaks.
Speaker B:And that is stunning.
Speaker B:In a world where we feel like we have to always have the right word or the right answer or what if I say the wrong thing?
Speaker B:So that's, that's.
Speaker B:Thing number one is not talking.
Speaker B:Thing number two is never wanting you to be anything other than what you are.
Speaker B:So it does not matter if you're a total asshole.
Speaker B:Well, it does, because sometimes they can sense it.
Speaker B:And maybe they don't like that, but it doesn't.
Speaker B:All of, all of our dark parts, all of us have shadows, all of us have less shining parts.
Speaker B:All of us have things that we're ashamed of, things that we feel shame about.
Speaker B:Doesn't matter, doesn't resonate, doesn't register, is not a thing.
Speaker B:They, they are only like you.
Speaker B:You come home and it doesn't matter what you've done or what you've experienced or your mistakes, like you're going to get the same greeting, you're going to get the same love.
Speaker B:And so they only want for you to be who you are.
Speaker B:And that means a lot on a really bad day.
Speaker A:It really does.
Speaker A:But it's that, that, that love without expectation, it's presence.
Speaker A:And I find that you can hear in the background.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Perfect time.
Speaker A:I find that when I'm in those moments and.
Speaker A:Hold on a sec.
Speaker B:Hold on.
Speaker A:I'm gonna stop this.
Speaker A:Carla, nice it up.
Speaker A:Got it up.
Speaker A:Yeah, she's.
Speaker A:She's in the background on her back, just screaming in the air.
Speaker B:You just.
Speaker B:You need to keep all of that in.
Speaker B:Please do not.
Speaker A:I most likely will.
Speaker B:I most likely.
Speaker B:It's so perfect.
Speaker B:It's gonna touch on my next point.
Speaker B:Go ahead.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:It's that presence.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:Nothing matters except for the fact that you're here and you're right.
Speaker A:Sometimes their inability to speak and just listen without expectation.
Speaker A:It's like, whatever you're saying to me is the best thing you've ever said to me.
Speaker A:I can't believe this.
Speaker A:Cats are a whole different story.
Speaker A:Cats are assholes, but dogs are amazing at that.
Speaker A:I've found that the thing that we forget as humans is just to be present.
Speaker A:But I want to hear this.
Speaker A:This last piece.
Speaker B:Getting out of our own way to live our most joyful best life.
Speaker B:Every single day, every moment that that is possible.
Speaker B:Just not caring what other people think.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter.
Speaker B:And defining joy, however you want to define it, showing up every day to whatever it is that brings you joy or closer to joy.
Speaker B:Just getting out of your own way.
Speaker B:There's no rules in a dog's world about, like, well, what.
Speaker B:What if.
Speaker B:What if it's not allowed?
Speaker B:Or, you know, as far as.
Speaker B:As far as what.
Speaker B:What brings them joy and what they want.
Speaker B:They never question.
Speaker B:They never question.
Speaker B:Should I feel this way?
Speaker B:Is this.
Speaker B:Is this what I should want?
Speaker B:Should I.
Speaker B:Should I want to scoot my butt across the carpet?
Speaker B:Should I not want that?
Speaker B:What does society say about wetsuits?
Speaker A:You know, like, Let me check Reddit on Reddit.
Speaker A:Look what I should be thinking.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:So dogs have the best day ever.
Speaker A:What does your best day ever look like?
Speaker B:Oh, there's.
Speaker B:I just have all these, like, flashes of, like, what it involves.
Speaker B:And there's no, like.
Speaker B:There's a time when it's just.
Speaker A:It doesn't have to.
Speaker B:So it involves my dog.
Speaker B:It involves snuggling.
Speaker B:It involves me letting go.
Speaker B:Like, I think my best day involves me getting out of my own way.
Speaker B:So I'm not questioning.
Speaker B:It's like, am I doing it right?
Speaker B:Should I be doing something else?
Speaker B:Should I be doing more?
Speaker B:Should I be doing less?
Speaker B:And just present, like you said, being present with what it is I want and need in that day and letting myself have that.
Speaker B:And it involves my dogs.
Speaker B:It normally involves good food, good wine, a lot of laughing with people that I love.
Speaker B:And sometimes that's just like, around the fire pit with a drink.
Speaker B:Or it could be at a show where we're just watching a band that we love.
Speaker B:So it involves a lot of laughter.
Speaker B:It involves my dogs.
Speaker B:It involves good, good food and good wine and a new experience, some sort of novelty or change of environment that offers me the ability to think or see something in a different way.
Speaker B:And what I mean by that, that was a lot.
Speaker B:But what I mean by that is I think one of the greatest gifts of travel for me is that when I take myself out of my normal day at, day out, this is what needs to happen.
Speaker B:You know, this is the routine.
Speaker B:And just insert myself in some place that is somewhat unfamiliar without routine or itinerary, per se, whatever, and just open up to that space.
Speaker B:Then you think about everything differently.
Speaker B:It's like a clean slate for your brain, and that is priceless.
Speaker B:And so sometimes I might have some of my best ideas for the business or just think about my life differently.
Speaker B:That is something that brings me tremendous joy.
Speaker B:And that's definitely a best day.
Speaker B:And that might be on a trail.
Speaker B:I might be hiking a trail.
Speaker B:And then I was like, oh, you know what?
Speaker B:I never thought of this that way.
Speaker A:That sounds like a pretty rad day, as a matter of fact.
Speaker A:So as we begin to land this plane, as you're telling stories, as more people want to tell stories with their pets, what do you find as some of the easiest things to do to get a good story going?
Speaker A:Or what is the most challenging thing for you?
Speaker A:So one of each.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:To get a good story going so that I can photograph.
Speaker B:You mean what is meaningful to that?
Speaker B:Yes, to get a good story going, it takes a compelling question.
Speaker B:And the compelling question can be, what is it that you want.
Speaker B:Want most to celebrate about Fifi, your dog, Phoebe.
Speaker B:If you had three words to describe Fifi, when you think about everything that you love most about her and all of her attributes that are so unique, what would be those three words?
Speaker B:And then really just nailing down on, like, one of those that clearly are most meaningful.
Speaker B:And then from there, you get all the imagery, all the visualizations start showing up because you get stories going.
Speaker B:Or the one that I shared before, which is when.
Speaker B:Take me to that time when they were there for you like no one else.
Speaker B:So the.
Speaker B:The compelling question, having a list of compelling questions is just really priceless as well.
Speaker B:And then the hardest thing to get a story going is when people get in their own way, and that's really hard to navigate.
Speaker B:And sometimes people just aren't ready for something.
Speaker B:You know, when you're.
Speaker B:When you're digging deep and occasionally is.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's rare, really, because people get super excited about having the platform and the space to share their story about this creature that's so important to them.
Speaker B:Because nobody sit.
Speaker B:Because nobody goes to a dinner party or a cookout, is like, hey, tell me everything you love about your dog.
Speaker B:You know, like, not typically.
Speaker B:We can.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We speak about it in, like, kind of these overarching terms.
Speaker B:They're great, they're cute, they're sweet, they're loyal.
Speaker B:So people don't get to dive in to, like, really, really how they've shown up for them and been more important than a lot of different humans in their life.
Speaker B:So having that space is huge.
Speaker B:But occasionally some people aren't ready to go there, and that's challenging because then if that's the case, then you're taking a nice photo of a dog, and that has a little bit more of, like, a finite value to it than to capture what is most important to someone, what they're deeply connected to.
Speaker A:The intimacy of that.
Speaker A:That connection out of pure morbid curiosity.
Speaker B:Yes, I love morbid curiosity.
Speaker B:It's very related to chaos.
Speaker A:When you're photographing someone with their dog, inevitably they're going to start talking to their dog.
Speaker A:Like they talk to their dog at home in the human to dog voice.
Speaker A:It's the only thing that's just giving you the cringe where.
Speaker A:Where they're like, all right, I understand that you talk to your dog in a certain way, but this is just getting a little bit too personal, a little bit too creepy.
Speaker A:You ever get someone that just kind of like, oh, it's getting a little weird.
Speaker A:Like, I feel uncomfortable.
Speaker B:No, probably.
Speaker B:Probably because I'm just that weird.
Speaker B:Like, come, come listen to me talk to my dogs.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Well, I was cracking up the other day because I beloved.
Speaker B:Absolutely, absolutely beloved client who just talks to her dog like, the most.
Speaker B:Like, if you're gonna do, like, a Portlandia skit, that was, like, the most, like, stereotypical and absurdist tone of talking to your dog.
Speaker B:Like, this is it.
Speaker B:This is 100% it.
Speaker B:But then I just found myself doing it, too.
Speaker B:So we're both, like, talking to this dog and the same way.
Speaker B:And I also have to say, maybe coincidentally, maybe not, but this.
Speaker B:I have never seen a dog so zoned in on their human, talking to them as this particular dog, and they were just, like, hanging on every word.
Speaker B:Like they understood.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:And then what we're going to do is we put the leash on, and then we're going to go outside for the walkies, and then we're going.
Speaker B:And she's like.
Speaker B:She's like, okay, Yep.
Speaker B:Say more.
Speaker A:Coming up.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:And then go into the ice cream shop.
Speaker A:Belly rubs thing.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, but like, really focused in on the words.
Speaker B:Like they can actually understand all of them.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's.
Speaker B:That cracks me up.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But no, nothing.
Speaker B:Nothing.
Speaker B:That really made me cringe.
Speaker B:And it's probably because I'm just as kooky, too.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker A:That's fair.
Speaker A:And I'm not expecting you to out any of your clients, but I hear myself talk sometimes, and I'm like this, like, I can't believe I was just blowing raspberry on my dog's belly at night.
Speaker A:Just being that guy.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I'm.
Speaker A:I look around, I'm like, all right, there's no cameras on.
Speaker A:I didn't leave anything recording.
Speaker A:No one knows this happened.
Speaker A:Just between me.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:I definitely had some weird situations with.
Speaker B:With clients and their pups.
Speaker B:I can't remember any right off the top of my head, but I've definitely had some.
Speaker B:Some moments, aside from, like, tonality and how they talk to them, where I'm like, oh, okay, well, that's happening right now.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:I hate.
Speaker A:I can't believe I'm gonna say this.
Speaker A:Like, when people tongue kiss their dog and they're just kind of getting into it, that just.
Speaker A:I lose my.
Speaker A:I lose my shit.
Speaker A:I'm just kind of like, I love my dog more than a thousand sons.
Speaker A:I love my dog, but never will our tongues meet, ever.
Speaker A:I don't care what's happening.
Speaker A:This is why I don't do pet photography.
Speaker A:Clearly.
Speaker A:You got a goldfish, bring it on in.
Speaker A:Maybe that's a story you can write in your next magazine, but tell me when and where people can find you.
Speaker A:Whereas Dog mom magazine, let's get everybody, you know, subscribing and getting into.
Speaker A:Where can they find everything that you're doing?
Speaker A:Doing?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, like I said, subscriptions.
Speaker B:All the profits from subscriptions go to rescue.
Speaker B:So no reason not to do that.
Speaker B:You're gonna love it.
Speaker B:So everything can.
Speaker B:Everything can be found on luxsummitstudio.com and so it's Lux without an A, L, U, X.
Speaker B:And then Summit is in the top of a mountain studio.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:That's where you find all of our stuff.
Speaker B:But dogma magazine.com, which is easy to remember, but I think we have a link to it on Luxunate Studios page as well.
Speaker A:You do?
Speaker A:You do?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And then on Instagram, Dog mom magazine on Instagram, Luxunit Studio.
Speaker B:Me personally, on Instagram, Kidloves, courageously, kid is N K I D D, which is my last name.
Speaker B:And that's where.
Speaker B:That's where you can find us and follow along.
Speaker B:And my next book project is also found on the Luxone IT Studio website page.
Speaker B:It's called A Letter to a Friend.
Speaker B:You can check all of that out.
Speaker B:I recommend highly that other photographers take a peek at the landing pages for both the magazine and the coffee table book, because a lot of people ask me about that, and you can kind of see what that looks like from a.
Speaker B:From a details perspective and from inspiration.
Speaker B:So please feel free to do that.
Speaker B:People can reach out to me about mentoring.
Speaker B:They can reach out to me about the magazine.
Speaker B:It's all there.
Speaker B:Or any questions that anyone has.
Speaker B:I've had a lot of people who have.
Speaker B:Have pulled me along this path in life and gotten me to where I am.
Speaker B:And I really believe in turning back and pulling.
Speaker B:Pulling those along with me so that we can all get to where we want to go to live our best lives.
Speaker A:We never get here by ourselves.
Speaker A:And I can't wait to perhaps be in Italy with you at some point.
Speaker A:At the graffy castle.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe we'll do something like that.
Speaker A:Travel the countryside.
Speaker B:That's the next listen.
Speaker B:That's the next conversation.
Speaker B:Dude, I'm telling you.
Speaker B:I mean, I think we should put it out there.
Speaker B:Everybody who follows your podcast listens.
Speaker B:Do they want to go to a workshop where you and I teach?
Speaker B:Well, would they come listen to us?
Speaker B:Would they come and listen to us teach?
Speaker B:And what would they like for us to teach about based on our conversation?
Speaker A:Now, see, now you're getting into my head.
Speaker A:I'm like, no one's gonna come see me right now.
Speaker A:I'm just.
Speaker A:You're resetting my whole brain imposter syndrome.
Speaker A:That's big.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's a third podcast that I'm doing.
Speaker A:So I think you've got this unbelievable career ahead of you.
Speaker A:And I've just.
Speaker A:Over the couple years that I've known you, have just watched you level up and level up and level up, and I just can't wait to see how this magazine takes off for You.
Speaker A:I want to see all your writing.
Speaker A:I think it behooves everybody to take a look at what you're doing as a source of inspiration for what they can do in their own business.
Speaker A:This, because you're facing it all head on.
Speaker A:You don't hesitate.
Speaker A:At least not that I'm hearing.
Speaker A:I'm sure there's probably some hesitation in there somewhere, but you've been able to embrace this fear and just really following the path that you want to follow.
Speaker A:And it shows because it's paying off every day.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for spending all this time with me.
Speaker A:This was a ton of fun.
Speaker A:I can't wait to do this again.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I will have you back.
Speaker A:Let's plan a couple of months from now and bring you back because I want to hear how the magazine launch really goes and get insights as to now that you're going to be this.
Speaker A:This mega publisher that is taking over the world.
Speaker A:I want to hear how the whole magazine goes.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker A:Is it a deal?
Speaker B:Deal.
Speaker B:Deal.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And then we can talk about what people want us to.
Speaker B:To teach about.
Speaker B:About.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I think they should, you know, screw it.
Speaker A:I think we should just come up with it.
Speaker A:I think we're talking about connection and empathy and we're doing all the perfectly imperfect things right.
Speaker A:And that's the part of life.
Speaker A:So stick around for a minute.
Speaker A:I can't wait to get this out.
Speaker A:I can't wait for people to hear your story.
Speaker A:And then I'll drop all the links of all the stuff into the show notes so that if you missed any of the links that we were talking about, just go down there in the show notes and you can find all the links.
Speaker A:Links there.
Speaker A:So thank you, Kristen, for all your time.
Speaker A:I can't wait to talk to you again.
Speaker B:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker B:Likewise.
Speaker A:I'll be the best.
Speaker A:I'll see you later.
Speaker B:Bye.
