Ep. 039 - Josh Beaton: The Currency of Kindness
Josh Beaton, the portrait photographer from Chicago, dives deep into the essence of building confidence, not just behind the camera but in life itself. He’s the brain behind Tween Esteem, a non-profit that empowers teens to embrace their self-worth through the magic of photography. Imagine this: free photo sessions that not only capture a moment but also transform how teens see themselves. Josh shares his journey of balancing the artistry of photography with the responsibilities of running a business, revealing the pressures of social media and the myth that more gear equals better photos. He opens up about his struggles and triumphs, reminding us that it’s about the impact we have on others, not just the clicks we get. If you’ve ever felt torn between your passion and your paycheck, this chat with Josh is the pep talk you didn’t know you needed. He’s not just taking pictures; he’s changing lives, one confident teen at a time.
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: The Currency of Kindness
Episode Number: 39
Publish Date: 13 March 2025
Episode Overview
We're diving into some serious but super important stuff today—confidence! Not just in photography, but in life. Josh Beaton, our guest, is a brilliant portrait photographer based in Chicago, but he’s also the mastermind behind Tween Esteem, a non-profit dedicated to boosting the self-worth of teens through photography. We chat about how he’s using free photo sessions, gallery shows, and even social media safety talks to make a real impact on young people's lives. Trust me, this isn’t just about snapping pretty pictures; it’s about changing lives and building a community. So if you’ve ever felt torn between making a living and making a difference, Josh’s journey might just inspire you to find your own balance. Get ready for some heartfelt stories and some real talk about life, art, and everything in between!
Takeaways:
- Josh Beaton, a Chicago portrait photographer, combines his passion for photography with an inspiring mission to enhance teen self-worth through his nonprofit, Tween Esteem.
- In this episode, we dive deep into the struggles of balancing creativity and business, highlighting the tension between artistic passion and the need to earn a living.
- Josh shares how he uses photography not just as an art form, but as a powerful tool for impacting young lives and building their confidence.
- We discuss the pitfalls of social media and the unrealistic standards it sets for young people, emphasizing the importance of authenticity in self-representation.
- Through Tween Esteem, Josh has created a supportive community for teens, offering workshops that empower them beyond just photography and into personal growth.
- The episode highlights the importance of mentorship and community support, showcasing how Josh's journey reflects a broader narrative of service and kindness in the creative industry.
Resources and Links
- WEBSITE: https://www.joshbeaton.com
- FACEBOOK: Josh Beaton Photography
- INSTAGRAM: https://instagram.com/joshbeatonphoto
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Transcript
Hey, thanks for coming back.
Speaker A:Let's talk about something we don't bring up enough confidence, not just in photography, but in life.
Speaker A:Today, I've got a guy who's doing something about it.
Speaker A:Josh Beaton is an insanely talented photographer with a killer eye for storytelling.
Speaker A:But what really sets him apart is the work he's doing with Tween Esteem.
Speaker A:It's a nonprofit he founded that's using photography to boost the confidence of young people.
Speaker A:We're talking free photo sessions, gallery shows, social media safety, talk, work with parents.
Speaker A:You know, real meaningful stuff that's changing lives.
Speaker A:And now, with plans to take this thing nationwide, Josh is proving that photography isn't just about pretty pictures.
Speaker A:It's about impact.
Speaker A:So in this episode, we get pretty vulnerable.
Speaker A:We talk about his struggle with balancing his art and business, the challenges of running a studio in Chicago, moving to New York, and how a mentorship with a Rolling Stone photo editor is helping him bridge the gap between creativity and commercial success.
Speaker A:We also get into the mess that is social media, the pressure of keeping up in this industry, and why buying more gear is never the answer to making better images.
Speaker A:So if you've ever felt like you're stuck between making a living and making a difference, this one's for you.
Speaker A:Josh has one hell of a story to tell.
Speaker A:So now, on with the show.
Speaker B:Listen.
Speaker B:All right, how do I put this?
Speaker B:That I don't sound like an idiot, but if global warming is going to change anything, snow is an okay thing for me.
Speaker B:Like, you can.
Speaker B:You can change the snow.
Speaker B:That's fine.
Speaker A:I'm super cool with that.
Speaker A:It's really funny to me, like, growing up in New England, my whole life, I have no problem with the cold or the snow.
Speaker A:But I realize that as I get older, I'm having a problem with the cold and the snow.
Speaker A:Like, I'm starting to get the whole snowbird mindset of moving to Florida, you know, in November, coming back in April.
Speaker A:Like, I'm starting to really get that.
Speaker A:I thought it was weird old people, but weird old people.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:Listen, I.
Speaker B:I've got on the trend of playing pickleball, so I'm a pickleball guy.
Speaker B:And it's all people about 20 years older than me, and they do that exact thing.
Speaker B:I see them in the summer, and then they go to Arizona, and then I see them again in the summer.
Speaker B:I don't think I'll ever be fortunate enough to live that lifestyle, but who knows?
Speaker B:Who knows?
Speaker B:And I'm a city guy.
Speaker A:Yeah, I grew up in Boston.
Speaker A:And I moved up here to Maine about 15 years ago.
Speaker A:Just about 15 years ago now.
Speaker A:Like, was always a city guy, like grew up in the city, loved it.
Speaker A:And then moving up here and I'm in a 700 person town, super rural.
Speaker A:It's an hour and a half to the closest Walmart.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And there's those things are everywhere.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's just, it's a big lifestyle change.
Speaker A:However, I really do miss the amenities, the services, all that stuff of a city.
Speaker A:But when I go to a city, I'm like, oh, God, get me back to the country after 15 years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've ever seen Northern Exposure, but that show, okay, so that show is like, I feel like that's what I want to do.
Speaker B:But my wife's from New York, will never, ever do that, ever.
Speaker B:I know that for sure.
Speaker B:We'll never live in a rural environment.
Speaker B:When my wife, when we drive up to my, my dad's house in Wisconsin, we have to go through a lot of farmland and she's like, I, I hate this.
Speaker B:I'm scared right now.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay.
Speaker B:She goes, I know most people are scared in the city.
Speaker B:I'm scared in a cow field.
Speaker A:It can be intimidating, man.
Speaker A:You stare down one of those bovines and there's something dark behind their eyes.
Speaker A:They're just, they're not all there.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:They know their future and they don't like it.
Speaker A:So you're, you're moving to Queens?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So my wife works in New York and she basically there three weeks a month.
Speaker B:And so we were figuring out what are we going to do here because she got a great job opportunity is why she kind of moved back there.
Speaker B:And we decided that we would just.
Speaker B:She gets like a stipend from work for travel.
Speaker B:We're like, why don't we take that stipend, turn it into buying an apartment there.
Speaker B:Then we get like two years of just help, you know, with.
Speaker B:It's not, doesn't cover everything, but it's help.
Speaker B:And then I stay here and wait for my daughter to graduate high school.
Speaker B:So she's a junior.
Speaker B:And so when she graduates high school and then goes to college, then I'll move out there full time.
Speaker B:But right now I'm kind of between both.
Speaker A:That would be a huge shakeup, especially junior in high school.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Just trying to, trying to finish things out.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Not an option.
Speaker B:But, but she, what she does now have is she has a house or an apartment in Chicago and an Apartment in New York.
Speaker B:So she'll, like, go stay with my wife for a weekend or for a week when she has off.
Speaker B:And she loves it, so it works out perfect.
Speaker A:Not a bad lifestyle.
Speaker A:Well, you know, thank you for kind of taking the time to be here.
Speaker A:You know, it's funny.
Speaker A:I've been tracking you for years.
Speaker A:You used to make tulle dresses, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I remember seeing that you were making these tool dresses right by hand, and I was just like.
Speaker A:And I just kind of started my studio, and I was just like, oh, my God, I'd love one of those things.
Speaker A:Can't afford it, don't need it.
Speaker A:Not the type of stuff I'm shooting.
Speaker A:But I was always like, yeah, at some.
Speaker A:At some point, you know, being in the Subi world, I'm like, I'm going to get myself a tool dress and, you know, a headdress and the whole thing.
Speaker A:I bumped into this woman who was getting out of photography, and she said, hey, do you want some of this wardrobe?
Speaker A:And she had one of these big black tulle dresses.
Speaker A:And it's become, like, the number one thing in my wardrobe for anybody coming in, they're like, I want to put on the big puffy dress.
Speaker A:And mainly teen girls and younger women want to put it on and wear, like, a corset.
Speaker A:And, like, they just mix up all these styles.
Speaker A:And I love it.
Speaker A:It's the most versatile piece that I've ever had.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, I wanted to ask you.
Speaker A:I didn't know if it was.
Speaker A:If it was one of yours.
Speaker A:There was no tag in it, and I don't know if it was an original that I had.
Speaker B:So, listen, I did it.
Speaker B:It was a Covid thing, and I was like, you.
Speaker B:I'm like, I really want one of these big gowns, you know?
Speaker B:And I could.
Speaker B:You know, I went and looked.
Speaker B:I'm like, I'm not paying $3,000 for one of these things that I don't know.
Speaker B:Like, I don't think I even had a studio at the time.
Speaker B:I'm like, I.
Speaker B:This is just for fun, you know?
Speaker B:And being the guy that I am, I'm like, how hard can that be?
Speaker B:I bet I can do it, you know?
Speaker B:And so I just went.
Speaker B:I took a sewing class over Covid, and then I just went on YouTube and I'm like, how do I sew a ruffle?
Speaker B:And I just, like, started doing it, and I made one and turned out better than I thought.
Speaker B:And then I just kind of made a bunch of them.
Speaker B:And, like, you.
Speaker B:They're the.
Speaker B:Like, the most popular things when people come in here.
Speaker B:Here's the issue is I've had them for years now, and it's like, a lot of my portfolio are people in these big skirts, and it's not very versatile.
Speaker B:You know, it's like, okay, well, all right, here's another person in a big skirt.
Speaker B:And, you know, and I'm talking to somebody through a website called Wonderful Machine who kind of like a mentor to get me into more commercial and editorial work.
Speaker B:And she's helping me out, and so we're going through, like, all my stuff, and she's like, do you have anyone, like, not in a skirt?
Speaker B:So I had to kind of, like, build that out a little bit, but they're fun.
Speaker B:And I just sent one of them.
Speaker B:I had, like, a blue one, grayish blue, and I just sent it around the country.
Speaker B:I did, like, a, like, what is it?
Speaker B:Traveling skirt kind of thing, and I just sent it around, and people would just do it.
Speaker B:Went to, like, 43 people.
Speaker B:I just got it back, like, last week.
Speaker B:I went to 43 people in, like, 25 states or something.
Speaker B:And it's just been traveling around, and it's.
Speaker B:It's pretty beat up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's really.
Speaker A:It's really cool to be part of that thing that you're helping all of these other creatives kind of recognize a vision.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because the tool dress might be, you know, a little bit cliche to you at this point because you got so many images in it, but there's someone out there.
Speaker A:It's like, God, I would love to have one image like that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's just.
Speaker A:It's a really cool thing that I've noticed in your entire Persona is this adherence to service.
Speaker A:You love to help others.
Speaker A:And, you know Erica Manning, correct?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I talked to her this morning.
Speaker A:One of my dearest friends love Erica.
Speaker A:She's only ever said glowing things, but she's like, you got to talk to Josh.
Speaker A:You got to talk to Josh.
Speaker A:And I'm like, okay, okay.
Speaker A:Erica's amazing, and she's always told me about some of the stuff that you were doing.
Speaker A:And that's how I got turned on to tween esteem originally, was she had told me about that, and then, you know, through our similar circles, you know, had learned about it.
Speaker A:And it seems like a really cool thing, but you seem to have this.
Speaker A:This center of gravity around service.
Speaker A:Is that, like, a big part of your business, or is that always just been part of you always wanting to Kind of give back being a nice person.
Speaker A:Nice people are weird these days.
Speaker A:Like there aren't a whole lot of them.
Speaker B:Well, it's kind of a detriment to my business, frankly, because, you know, if I could, and my wife, My wife could go on for years about my issues with this, but I would rather do it for free.
Speaker B:Whatever, Whatever it is, whatever next sentence is that you're going to ask, I would rather do it for free.
Speaker B:Now I know I can't.
Speaker B:And I'm sitting in a studio where, you know, rent is due every month.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's a struggle for me because I come from a very poor kid mentality, right?
Speaker B:Grew up poor.
Speaker B:Money has never been a motivator for me.
Speaker B:But being kind is like.
Speaker B:Being kind is a currency that I would rather live by, you know, and like I said, it's a detriment because I want to just create.
Speaker B:That's what I want to do.
Speaker B:My dream job is to make anything I want and have you pay me whatever you want for it.
Speaker B:And then that allows me to live.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, I keep looking on, like, indeed and stuff, and that job's not available right now, but I, I really want it to be, you know, and I've.
Speaker B:I've explored routes, which is like being an artist.
Speaker B:And I mean, I don't know, I don't have enough like black turtlenecks and stuff to be an artist.
Speaker A:Watch yourself.
Speaker B:I know you're an artist.
Speaker B:That's why I'm saying you're an artist.
Speaker B:Listen, I bow down.
Speaker B:I wish, you know, I get people in here all the time.
Speaker B:I do model calls all the time.
Speaker B:I know there's this big, you know, taboo about working for free.
Speaker B:I do it all the time, like literally all the time, because I've got what I call as creative adhd.
Speaker B:It's why I started making those skirts to begin with is I couldn't shoot.
Speaker B:So what can I do?
Speaker B:I need to do something during COVID And that was it.
Speaker B:And so now I'm sitting in this studio and to me, when the studio is empty, I'm failing.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not even business wise failing, just I'm failing myself because, you know, I am about to move to New York.
Speaker B:I'm not going to be able to afford this in New York.
Speaker B:There's just not, at least not anytime soon, right?
Speaker B:This is a big, open, beautiful space.
Speaker B:So why is it ever empty?
Speaker B:You know why.
Speaker B:Okay, so I'm not making money off of a shoot on a Wednesday night.
Speaker B:Instead, I could be at home watching tv.
Speaker B:All right, well, I'd rather be in here shooting than watching tv.
Speaker B:And it helps me kind of walk, cleanse myself of all this creativity that builds up.
Speaker B:It's like a plaque, right?
Speaker B:Where at first it's fine, but if I leave it kind of fester too long, it kind of, it, it builds up.
Speaker B:I, I just saw something, my wife just sent me something from Brene Brown where she talks about creativity and she says unused.
Speaker B:You've probably seen it where she says unused.
Speaker B:Creativity isn't benign, it's, it metastasizes.
Speaker B:And you know, it, I believe it.
Speaker B:I'd never heard it put that way before, but I find it absolutely true.
Speaker B:And that's what happens for me is if it's too much and I haven't done something for too long, it becomes bad, right?
Speaker B:And so this kindness is sort of selfish too because I love doing things for other people.
Speaker B:But in the end it, you know, they say it feeds your soul, right?
Speaker B:And that's true because otherwise it starves.
Speaker B:And I, I, I need to eat.
Speaker B:How weird that sounds.
Speaker A:But I know, right?
Speaker B:You know, my, my soul needs to eat.
Speaker A:It's not dissimilar though.
Speaker A:I find myself a lot of times in the same place, right.
Speaker A:I've got a beautiful studio that I absolutely love.
Speaker A:When it's empty, I feel like I'm failing.
Speaker A:And then the business guy in me is just like, well, if you're not getting paid then you know, you shouldn't be doing anything for free.
Speaker A:And then that is the artist side of me comes out, just like you were saying.
Speaker A:That's just kind of like, well, I should be creating something and do I want to do another self portrait?
Speaker A:Maybe I can be making this, maybe I can be making that.
Speaker A:And I tend towards education and learning and digital stuff, right.
Speaker A:Working on automations and trying to come up and fill gaps in the photography industry that I don't see people tapping into right now, right.
Speaker A:Some real high level automations and that's like my nerdy side.
Speaker A:But I have to be doing the same thing that you're doing, which is I have to be in motion, I have to be doing something.
Speaker A:I haven't been able to give away the work as much as I want to, right.
Speaker A:I call people all the time for model calls.
Speaker A:I'm like, come on in, come on in.
Speaker A:Like I just want to shoot and we'll do stuff for free and I can't get them to come in for free because they're like, oh, I don't want to get in front of the camera.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:These are friends.
Speaker A:I'm not doing model calls.
Speaker A:My friends come in.
Speaker A:Right, so it's this.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:This awful frustration when you have this wellspring of creativity in you and you want to be producing and you're looking around and you're like, well, there's no one here.
Speaker A:What do I do?
Speaker A:So I love the fact that you're able to channel that into shooting, into making stuff, into coming up with projects for people, bringing models and just keeping that creativity alive.
Speaker A:Because I look at your portfolio and it's massive.
Speaker A:Massive.
Speaker A:And it's just.
Speaker A:It's clearly gorgeous work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of stuff about that, but let's stick on kindness for a minute.
Speaker A:I know this is kind of where your head is at.
Speaker A:Talk to me a little bit about that dichotomy between being the person that is serving and being kind and the person that does need to run a business.
Speaker A:How do you reconcile that?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I'm not talking numbers.
Speaker A:Like, I know for some people that success isn't necessarily a number, but there's a feeling, right, I'm succeeding with my business.
Speaker A:Where do you walk that line between, all right, I've got a successful business, or I've got a business that kind of runs.
Speaker A:I wish it did more.
Speaker A:I wish I did more.
Speaker A:How do you walk that line between giving it away and making a living from it?
Speaker B:Well, this has come up recently because, to be completely frank, this show is about honesty, right?
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker B:I don't have a successful business.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I have a very creative business and business I use very lightly.
Speaker B:We'll put that business in quotes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, because I don't make much money doing this.
Speaker B:In fact, my.
Speaker B:My studio is a loss, and we're kind of like, right now I have to decide what I want to do because the lease comes up in, what, June.
Speaker B:And, you know, if it doesn't make any money by then, I may just have to cut this loss.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's just money going out the window.
Speaker B:It gives me joy.
Speaker B:I love being here.
Speaker B:It's like this.
Speaker B:It's almost like, you know, my safe space kind of thing.
Speaker B:But it isn't really worth it right now.
Speaker B:And so what I had to talk to myself about is, okay, so moneymakers.
Speaker B:And I've talked to a lot of photographer friends and stuff, and I'm like, okay, I need to make whatever amount of money in three months.
Speaker B:What would you suggest I do?
Speaker B:And they're like, well, run mini sessions or do headshots or, you know, this, this, this.
Speaker B:And all of it is like, you know, I'm like, I don't want to.
Speaker B:I just don't want to.
Speaker B:And frankly, I think it's unfair of me to do it because if someone comes in for a headshot, to me, headshots are.
Speaker B:They're gag worthy to me, right?
Speaker B:And some people are.
Speaker B:They do great job and that's their.
Speaker B:Whatever their, their business model and it's what they love to do.
Speaker B:For me, it is the worst and I don't like it.
Speaker B:And I think it's.
Speaker B:Anyone who does headshots is going to hate me by the end of this podcast.
Speaker B:But like, I find it so uncreative.
Speaker B:Like, it just like, I, to me, it's like an assembly line.
Speaker B:Like, all right, next.
Speaker B:Claire.
Speaker B:It reminds me of the old school photos, right?
Speaker B:And I'm sure there's ways to do it that are really creative.
Speaker B:I just don't know those ways or I don't.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not good in those.
Speaker B:And I, I have no interest in it, right?
Speaker B:Real estate photography, I have no interest in it.
Speaker B:I lump those two together.
Speaker B:They're just like things I don't want to do.
Speaker B:And in Chicago anyway, there's better photographers at headshots.
Speaker B:Like, you can go and get a better job done for less money than I would charge you.
Speaker B:It's unfair to you to have me take your headshot.
Speaker B:You know, I've been struggling with this stuff.
Speaker B:Do I stay true to who I am and try to make money at it, or do I make money to be able to stay true to who I am?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:It's like this weird catch 22.
Speaker B:And I have a day job right now, right?
Speaker B:Which is.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:I work during the day and then I do this stuff at night and I work from the studio, so it's remote.
Speaker B:So it's great.
Speaker B:But is doing headshots just like having a day job?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:Like, can I just replace the two?
Speaker B:And then I'm doing photography all the time, but then I struggle with.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:So then I do headshots as my, my day job, right?
Speaker B:And then do the creative stuff later.
Speaker B:But now I'm taking the thing that I love and making part of it what I don't love.
Speaker B:Like right now, every time I pick up my camera, I'm happy, right?
Speaker B:I don't, I don't want to have a time when most of the time that I pick up my camera, I'm not happy.
Speaker B:You know, I feel like that's really going to affect the times when I do want to shoot and it'll become more of a hassle.
Speaker B:So it's this real like internal struggle.
Speaker B:I'm having that balance, right?
Speaker B:Like, like I do want to give.
Speaker B:And we'll get into tweeness theme a little later, but I want to give.
Speaker B:It sounds like such a douchey thing to say, but like I just want to people to pay me to do what I want to do, right?
Speaker B:It's just like that's all I want to do.
Speaker B:And I think that I'm good enough at it that I should be paid for it.
Speaker B:And this is, this is another jerk thing.
Speaker B:I'm not going to come off as a very nice guy.
Speaker B:We're talking about kindness.
Speaker B:I'm just saying things, right?
Speaker B:Um, but there's, you know, everybody does this.
Speaker B:I think you see work that maybe you don't think is as good as your work, but you can tell they're killing it.
Speaker B:Like they are just business wise, they are killing it.
Speaker B:And you're like, I don't.
Speaker B:At least me, I'm like, I don't get it.
Speaker B:I don't get it.
Speaker B:And I can't take another business class.
Speaker B:And you know, all this stuff because I feel like I've done them all, you know, if I don't know it by now, it's something else.
Speaker B:It's not that a big part of it, right?
Speaker A:Like we've, we've all taken all the courses, we've studied all the mentors, right?
Speaker A:We know what to do.
Speaker A:And either pull the trigger or you don't sometimes, right?
Speaker A:You get it.
Speaker A:And you know, the.
Speaker A:I got everything you're saying I resonate with so much because being where I am and not being in a major metro area, all I wanted to do when I started the studio, right, I came out of commercial photography and I went into portraits and I came out and I was just like, you know, I want to do art, I want to do beautiful portraits.
Speaker A:More like, I'll call it personal branding, but to me it's just portraits.
Speaker A:I only do that because other people call it that.
Speaker A:The same thing with headshots.
Speaker A:I'm like, I'm giving you the same experience, whether it's a headshot of personal branding, fine art, like you're just getting it.
Speaker A:I'm just bringing you in under a different umbrella, right?
Speaker A:But you're getting the same exact product.
Speaker A:The, the interesting thing is I think the same way that you do.
Speaker A:Insofar as I never really wanted to turn what was essentially a hobby into a job.
Speaker A:But once I started getting paid, I'm like, okay, all right.
Speaker A:I can make this a.
Speaker A:My viable source of income.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:But what do I.
Speaker A:What do I love to do, right?
Speaker A:I love doing the art side of it.
Speaker A:I love making beautiful, beautiful images.
Speaker A:And that doesn't always pay the bills.
Speaker A:No matter what people say, I am not.
Speaker A:I am not one of these.
Speaker A:I'm making 500 grand a year doing, you know, because people come in and they buy 70 photos and nine pieces of wall art, and I've got all these 15.
Speaker A:Doesn't happen to me, right?
Speaker A:I looked around and I was like, well, how do I.
Speaker A:How do I make the connection in my mind that I can do some of these things and dissociate from them?
Speaker A:Real estate headshots, right?
Speaker A:How do I do those things?
Speaker A:And it's kind of like it's not really me.
Speaker A:It's almost like my alter ego, like, you know, this.
Speaker A:This person that doesn't want to admit, like, don't tell anyone I do this because I do this other stuff over here.
Speaker A:It's really cool.
Speaker A:Don't do this stuff over here.
Speaker A:This is me whoring myself out, right?
Speaker A:This is me on a street corner at night, like, just trying to make my heat money.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I look at that, and I never feel artistic.
Speaker A:I never feel like I'm as connected to my own work when I'm doing that stuff, right?
Speaker A:All I'm doing is bringing the knowledge of light and composition to whatever's in front of me.
Speaker A:The same thing with headshots, right?
Speaker A:Is like, I've railed against headshots for years of being like, that is my business model.
Speaker A:I am just going to do headshots because I feel the same way you do.
Speaker A:It's like, they don't want to be there on school picture day.
Speaker A:They're nervous.
Speaker A:No one feels good.
Speaker A:It's criticizing.
Speaker A:You don't have a chance to connect with the people that you want to connect with in the way that I think you and I connect with our subjects.
Speaker A:And it never really feels fulfilling.
Speaker A:But I'm like, oh, it's that dirty little thing that I gotta do every now and again, you know?
Speaker A:And it just feels dirty every time.
Speaker A:A lot of us right now, in especially studio owners, portrait photography, I wouldn't say this is like the golden era where we're all swimming like Scrooge McDuck in a mound of gold, right?
Speaker A:And I think we're all feeling this strange shift to do.
Speaker A:I want to keep doing it the way that I'm doing it because this is the way that a business should run.
Speaker A:Or am I just falling out of love with what I fell in love with?
Speaker A:And I don't know, man, I always get that seven year itch.
Speaker A:I've changed careers a bunch of times and I'm right about that.
Speaker A:Seven, eight years doing portraits, and I'm like, maybe it's time to get into landscaping.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I just don't know what's next.
Speaker A:So you're not douchey for you to say it's like you want to make the art, how do you just keep making the art?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it, it, it kind of, it makes me question myself because if I'm not willing to do the headshots, if I'm not willing to do the real estate photos, whatever it is, you know, do I want this bad enough?
Speaker B:And that's the thing that bothers me a lot about it is I tell myself I do, right?
Speaker B:I do, I do anything, you know, to, to be able to shoot photos.
Speaker B:But here we are, and I'm not willing to do anything.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And I don't, I don't love that feeling.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:My wife, my wife always says that, you know, every guy says a gunman came in here.
Speaker B:I would do anything to save my family and all of this.
Speaker B:And then you hear about plenty of stories where that doesn't actually happen because you react differently when you're in the moment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I feel like I'm in the moment right now and I'm reacting differently than I always told myself I would.
Speaker B:And so that's a little like harsh reality that kind of slapped me in the face.
Speaker B:So I'm doing kind of like this, you know, Do I switch careers now too?
Speaker B:But not necessarily career, but more like focus.
Speaker B:So you said you came from commercial photography.
Speaker B:I think I'm looking to go into commercial photography where, you know, and try and do the whole agent route where I'm taken out of everything I don't like.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I, at least this is in my mind how it works.
Speaker B:I show up or I get sent the job.
Speaker B:I show up, I do the job, they pay me whatever the agent said was going to happen, and I go to the next job.
Speaker B:To me, that's perfect.
Speaker B:Yeah, right?
Speaker B:That is a dream.
Speaker B:Sure, I give up money because I'm working with an agent, but I don't want to do any of that.
Speaker B:And I'm willing to pay someone else.
Speaker B:I even debated here doing a portrait business, you know, and saying, all right, I'm going to hire a salesperson.
Speaker B:You get 50% of anything you sell.
Speaker B:Like, you can have half of it.
Speaker B: So if you sell this $: Speaker B:And that was just like that.
Speaker B:And I know that it's sort of hurting me because I should be able to do that.
Speaker B:I should be able to sell my own work, but I can't.
Speaker B:So I just need to, you know, admit that to myself that if I can find someone who would do that for me, oh, I'd hire him in a second.
Speaker B:I'd do that for sure.
Speaker B:I don't even know where to start with it, but I do that in a second.
Speaker A:And I think that's a big thing we all face, right?
Speaker A:I would outsource 99% of what I do if I could just show up and shoot, right?
Speaker A:And it's all the other that makes us, like, go bananas.
Speaker A:Like, why am I even do.
Speaker A:I can go to McDonald's and make more in aggregate that I'm making right now.
Speaker A:Working all these hours trying to make this work.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I think we all kind of go up and down.
Speaker A:I know the fact that you're even acknowledging that you're in this space is huge, right?
Speaker A:Because a lot of people will just either get frustrated or try harder or not take the time to step back and reflect and be like, is this what I really want to do?
Speaker A:And if you're shifting into commercial photography, I say, I came from commercial photography.
Speaker A:I was working mainly with businesses and products.
Speaker A:However, comma, this was not like Chanel or, you know, Nike or anything like that, Right.
Speaker A:But it was a totally different way of doing photography versus portraits.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And so the thing that I find is when you're able to actually look at your business in an honest way, or your art or just what you're doing with a camera, and it doesn't have to be business, it doesn't have to be art.
Speaker A:Whatever you're doing that makes you feel good.
Speaker A:If you're starting to feel like you're losing a little bit of it or losing a little bit of that passion, I think it's great to kind of step back, take that pause, and be like, all right, what does need to shift before you get to a point where now I just hate picking up a camera, right?
Speaker A:And you feel like you're.
Speaker A:You're getting rid of one of your kids.
Speaker A:Like, you're just like, Oh, I don't love you anymore.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's that it rips that heart out of your chest.
Speaker A:From where I sit, I think you're in this wonderful position of saying, how do I define my own happiness?
Speaker A:For me, regardless of what other people say the model is supposed to be, how do I do what's best for me here in my head, here in my heart, here for my family?
Speaker A:How do I do the best for everyone around me and feel good about that?
Speaker A:And sometimes that is putting the camera down and serving fries.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I think this little bit of reflection is awesome.
Speaker A:I don't think enough people do it.
Speaker A:Where do you find yourself leaning?
Speaker A:You're in this position where you.
Speaker A:You're going to be moving across the country in a couple of years, right?
Speaker A:Or you've even got the lease coming up in June.
Speaker A:Is there a way for you to continue doing the things that you want to do without having a studio?
Speaker A:And does that studio tie into your identity so much that there's fear in there that, like, if I don't have the studio, then I won't get hired to do anything.
Speaker A:I need the studio to do the commercial job so that it looks more legit.
Speaker A:Like, are there any those weird fears and kind of like the.
Speaker A:If the thens that are weighing into any of this.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, 100% of it is fear, you know, I mean, I live in Chicago.
Speaker B:I can rent a studio tomorrow if I wanted to for the four hours to do a shoot, right.
Speaker B:I don't need to have a studio.
Speaker B:I've always wanted a studio.
Speaker B:And right now I have my dream studio.
Speaker B:Like, this is exactly what I want.
Speaker B:And the fact that I've had it this.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm just completing my second year in June.
Speaker B:Um, and that I'd have to give it up.
Speaker B:Like, that is like a stab in my heart.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:I know I have to.
Speaker B:Well, most likely would have to give it up when I moved to New York anyway.
Speaker B:But that is a reason, right?
Speaker B:Right now the reason is that I can't hack it.
Speaker B:And that isn't a reason I'm willing to accept, you know, and so it's, again, because I'm.
Speaker B:I'm so mad about that.
Speaker B:I think the work is there, right?
Speaker B:And I, like, I feel confident in the work.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:It's the 90% of the business that I don't feel good about, you know, and so it's.
Speaker B:It's not that.
Speaker B:I guess it is that it is sort of part of my identity.
Speaker B:And I know if I lose it.
Speaker B:I know myself well enough that I'll go into like a little rut for a while where I'll feel like I can't do anything because I don't have a studio, even though that, of course I can.
Speaker B:That makes no sense.
Speaker B:And it would be June, so, you know, it's summer.
Speaker B:Like, I mean, there's no reason for me to kind of throw a little tantrum about it, but I will.
Speaker B:If that happens, I will throw a tantrum here for you.
Speaker A:Let me be the bullhorn.
Speaker A:Let's throw this to address.
Speaker A:You know, I've got a.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:There's a theater here in town that does a lot of work in the arts community.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:It's a movie theater, but they have like, you know, live bands there.
Speaker A:And a lot of the.
Speaker A:The events that they put on are pay what you can, right?
Speaker A:Just pay what you can.
Speaker A:And it kind of sounds like that would be the ideal thing for you.
Speaker A:Just show up, let me create your portrait, let me create some art with you.
Speaker A:Pay what you can, and we'll just kind of move on with things.
Speaker A:That's kind of like the wonderful part of, yeah, wish you could do.
Speaker B:I wish I could do it.
Speaker B:The problem is, God, I'm such a jerk when I talk about things, but I think the photography community right now is kind of toxic in the sense that I would love to do that.
Speaker B:But now I feel shamed because I'm not charging what I'm supposed to be charging, and I'm.
Speaker B:I'm devaluing the industry and all of this stuff.
Speaker B:And, you know, I'm over here kind of struggling like, okay, well, on top of the.
Speaker B:The money blocks and all that stuff from just growing up the way I did, I am not my own client, right?
Speaker B:So I look at this work and I'm like, oh, this is amazing.
Speaker B:I know what the back end costs.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I probably wouldn't pay fifteen hundred dollars for this one image, you know, But I have to convince you to do it.
Speaker B:And I know everyone said you have to believe in it, you have to know the value to be able to sell the value and all of that.
Speaker B:And unfortunately, I don't.
Speaker B:And so I think that's where a lot of the issues come in, is I want to create the work.
Speaker B:I create for, I guess, a price that I'm more comfortable with.
Speaker B:But again, I also know how marketing works and I know the whole middle industry model how that just is dying and you gotta go either really cheap or really expensive.
Speaker B:Like, I know, I just hate it all, hate it all.
Speaker B:But I just feel like there's so much judgment that happens in the photography industry just from each other, that I'm almost scared to do what I want.
Speaker B:You know, I feel like I won't be respected.
Speaker B:Not that I'm respected now, but I don't want to be respected or I don't want to feel like I'm not respected in the industry if I just kind of go my own way and do whatever I want.
Speaker B:Like, I feel like I sort of have to just get in this stampede and follow everybody else.
Speaker B:Otherwise being the outlier is, you know, I'm attracting the wolves that's going to eat everybody else.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And I, and I don't want to be that guy.
Speaker B:It's fine if I'm just swimming upstream and doing my own thing, but if my little actions are affecting the herd, you know, then I feel like I can't really do it.
Speaker B:So I'm in this weird thing here.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, but it's, it's really common, right?
Speaker A:And I'm, I'm going to stand here in solidarity with you because, yes, I think we are, maybe we, we swim in really small circles because photography, right.
Speaker A:I have to keep reminding myself, like, whatever circles I'm in, the people that I know, the circles that we're in is a very small niche of actual photography.
Speaker A:There's so many thousands of photographers out there doing whatever it is that they do for their business, yet we in our small little tribe all feel like we have to do the same thing the same way.
Speaker A:I'm fortunate enough to know enough people that are so far off the reservation from the standard business model and they are the most creative, the most well respected, and they're building a body of work that is theirs and they are beholden to no one.
Speaker A:I want that level of confidence like you couldn't believe, right?
Speaker A:Because I look around and I'm the same way.
Speaker A:I'm like, all right, my pricing needs to be here.
Speaker A:If I'm at this level and if I need to make this amount of money, then I have to be charging here.
Speaker A:And if you're charging less, then why don't you bring the industry up to where we all are?
Speaker A:And it's this nasty little game and we're putting numbers on things that don't need to have numbers because there's too many factors in what people will buy.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:There's only so much that the market will bear.
Speaker A:And if you're in a place like where I Am I don't get the $12,000 sales because $12,000 is a quarter of someone's entire income here.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they're not going to come to me and say, yeah, I want that one 40 by 60 leather piece of wall art for my double wide that is right down the street.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It's just not going to happen.
Speaker A:So, you know, but we, we fall into these traps that we have to do what everybody else is doing.
Speaker A:I found that that same kind of toxicity, that herd mentality that am I going to get respected?
Speaker A:Am I going to be seen as someone influential?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Whatever it is that my ego is throwing at me when I was able to just kind of step back and say, you know what, I'm having a shitty year business wise.
Speaker A:I'm putting way too much emphasis on what other people think I should do and how I should do it.
Speaker A:And I'm comparing and I'm chasing and I'm doing all these things.
Speaker A:I had to really just shut down and isolate for the past couple of months and I realized that, oh yeah, no, my life didn't change at all.
Speaker A:I didn't need all that stuff.
Speaker A:I didn't need to stay in that mindset where I'm doing this comparison.
Speaker A:However, it's hard not to.
Speaker A:When you're trying to carve out a space for yourself, it's hard not to fall into that.
Speaker A:However, it's not necessary.
Speaker A:I'm finding more and more social media is not necessary.
Speaker A:And I know you know this from the toxicity of social media.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:Like we don't need so much of what we think we do to be fulfilled.
Speaker A:And I love what I keep hearing from you, which is I just want to be fulfilled.
Speaker A:And it's not tied to a dollar sign and it's not tied to an award and it's not tied to status.
Speaker A:You want that heart space to be full and however you get there is fine, but you want it to be on your terms.
Speaker A:There's nothing but respect for that.
Speaker A:So I think we're in very similar places where it's this gray area of do I do what kind of the mentors tell me to do?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because it's a proven thing out there, or do I go out on my own and eschew all of that?
Speaker A:I don't know, where's the middle?
Speaker A:What makes you feel good?
Speaker A:And there's no one that can answer that for us but ourselves.
Speaker B:And we all have different styles and different, like I, I don't know anyone and I hope this doesn't Come off as egotistical, but I don't know anyone that shoots the way I do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I shoot differently.
Speaker B:I'm not saying I shoot better, but I shoot differently.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:And so some of these mentor models that I.
Speaker B:I've talked to, and one in particular was like, okay, well, so you just do headshots, and then you get them in, and then you sell them this other stuff, and I'm like, totally not what I want to do.
Speaker B:So what now?
Speaker B:And they're like, that's kind of.
Speaker B:I'm like, no, that's.
Speaker B:That's not how I want to do it.
Speaker B:So are you just saying that it won't work now?
Speaker B:And they're kind of like, well, yeah, all right.
Speaker B:Well, I don't believe you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:There must be a way for it to work.
Speaker B:I'm not finding it yet, but there must be a way for it.
Speaker B:For it to work.
Speaker B:There's so many, like, templates, business templates out there, and I just feel like it's hard to navigate around those templates when you don't fit in.
Speaker B:I have a real validation issue.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, I, I.
Speaker B:I've said this, I think, in other things, but I pretend like I don't need validation, but I need it more than anything, you know?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You're crazy.
Speaker B:That's all I want.
Speaker B:That's all I want.
Speaker B:But I'll walk around and be like, I don't care what anyone thinks of me, but then I'll, like, you know, send, you know, cards and stuff to try and make them like me, and, you know, like, I just tell me I'm.
Speaker B:It's a problem.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Basically.
Speaker B:Basically, you know, tell me I'm good.
Speaker B:Tell me I'm good.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's probably why I enter so many competitions, is because that's the validation I need.
Speaker B:I've never, like, won money or anything from them, but, like, the little trophies I get or anything like that, I just, like, Like, I need it.
Speaker B:I need that.
Speaker B:Mainly, I think, probably because the business isn't feeding that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If I was getting $200,000 a year worth of clients, I'd be like, there's my validation.
Speaker B:But I'm not getting that.
Speaker B:So now I need it from somewhere.
Speaker B:Otherwise, it's all a failure.
Speaker B:And then I can't, like, I need to win awards right now because I'm not winning money, and so I need one of it to happen.
Speaker B:And so the awards thing is working out pretty well, but the money, we're still working on it.
Speaker A:I saw you had the icon badge on your website.
Speaker A:You did pretty good.
Speaker A:Are you going out to wppi?
Speaker A:Do you have stuff in the.
Speaker A:In the.
Speaker A:In the print competition?
Speaker B:I do.
Speaker B:I have.
Speaker B:I have a top 10 for group.
Speaker B:I think it is.
Speaker B:I think it's under the creative group or something, which is awesome because two people count as a group, which is perfect.
Speaker B:So I got in that and yeah.
Speaker B:So I'm going out to WPI for the first time.
Speaker B:I've never been before.
Speaker B:So this will.
Speaker B:Let's.
Speaker B:Will be fun.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it'll be great.
Speaker A:We'll have to.
Speaker A:We'll have to link up.
Speaker A:I'm going out.
Speaker A:This will be my third time going out and I don't enter the competitions anymore.
Speaker A:I found for me, right.
Speaker A:I was doing a lot of the.
Speaker A:The Portrait System Awards did that for years.
Speaker A:And then I just realized for me that it wasn't good for my brain that I felt like I personally was trying to force my art into what I thought they would judge well instead of doing what kind of followed here.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's not to say anything about competitions other than as long as you know the intention of why you're going into it, go for it, like dominate, slay, the entire thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But for me, it was causing.
Speaker A:It was causing me to.
Speaker A:To really not like just even shooting because I was like, do I have to play this game?
Speaker A:I'm already playing the corporate thing with the business.
Speaker A:Do I have to play this game too just to get street cred?
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I just couldn't do it.
Speaker A:I love watching competition and I can't wait to see like your stuff in.
Speaker A:Because there's nothing like seeing in print.
Speaker A:Watching the judges in person.
Speaker A:It's a really fun experience.
Speaker A:So I can't wait to see your stuff out there.
Speaker A:Let me know when it's being judged.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think Monday morning.
Speaker B:It's Monday morning, I think.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker B:But yeah, I've heard a lot of people say that about competitions.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's just not good for them mentally.
Speaker B:And I totally get that.
Speaker B:For me, it's.
Speaker B:That's where I feel like I can just do what I want.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:With the business, I feel like I've got these reins on me that, well, no one's going to buy a picture of, you know, if I wrap somebody in a white foam thing and put a white wig on, like, I'm not getting that client who comes in.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I am getting that for just creative, fun work that I can enter in competitions.
Speaker B:So that's.
Speaker B:To me, that's like the art side of it where I'm also.
Speaker B:I, you know, I've come from a sports that played sports my whole life.
Speaker B:So the competitive nature is there and I just, it's like, you know, like, I love you, Matt.
Speaker B:I want you to do well and I want you to be really happy with second place, right?
Speaker B:That's my mind going in, right?
Speaker B:You know, like, I want to win and I don't.
Speaker B:Like, I don't win.
Speaker B:Yeah, I like whatever.
Speaker B:I do well, but I don't win.
Speaker B:And not all the time.
Speaker B:And so it's not like I just win everything and I walk around and you know, whatever, but it's just fun for me.
Speaker B:To me, it gives me almost purpose for.
Speaker B:For these things that I'm shooting where sometimes if there is no competition going on, I'm just shooting, right?
Speaker B:For Instagram, you know, and doesn't feel as great just shooting for Instagram.
Speaker A:Especially when your Instagram's not like bringing in bank for you, right?
Speaker A:You're not monetizing that.
Speaker A:Like, great.
Speaker A:I got another, like, from Aunt Edna.
Speaker A:Fantastic, right?
Speaker B:And it's, it's.
Speaker B:I don't understand Instagram.
Speaker B:I don't have a lot of followers, right?
Speaker B:I have like 5,000 followers.
Speaker B:But my latest post, 100 people saw it and I'm like, I don't understand it.
Speaker B:What is the point of having 5,000 followers if 100 people see it, you know?
Speaker A:You know, and I saw something on that same vein because I'm again right there with you on it.
Speaker A:Like, if social media wasn't something I felt I had to do, I would be nowhere near it.
Speaker A:Just there's Gen X, old Gen X.
Speaker A:I knew the world before it and now I know it afterwards.
Speaker A:And I don't like the world afterwards, right?
Speaker A:So I look at it and I realize when I see that, right?
Speaker A:I get 100 likes, 50 likes, and I look at it, I go, fuck, like 57 people.
Speaker A:Like, it should have been at least 58, right?
Speaker A:But then I'm like, if I walked into a room and there were 58 people in a room and they were like, your stuff is amazing.
Speaker A:I wouldn't know what to do.
Speaker A:I'd break down and cry because I'm like, you guys love me.
Speaker A:You really love me, right?
Speaker A:But we don't do that with this weird digital icon stuff out there.
Speaker A:Because it's not real, it's not tangible.
Speaker A:It's just a measurement, right?
Speaker A:I need more.
Speaker A:I need more.
Speaker A:I need more.
Speaker A:Rather than saying, wow, there's 50 people out there that really dig what I do.
Speaker A:Ten years ago, no one dug what I did.
Speaker A:Having 50 is kind of a, you know, an uptick.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's a weird.
Speaker A:It's a weird place that we sit in with the whole social media thing.
Speaker A:But that being said, I look at your work, and it makes me.
Speaker A:It makes me realize there's so much further I can go with my stuff.
Speaker A:When I look at you, yours, because I'm like, that's the stuff I want to shoot.
Speaker A:Not so much all the same skirt on, all the same people.
Speaker A:I mean that as a dig.
Speaker A:But you were callback, right?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:So please.
Speaker A:But I look at the stuff, and what strikes me is, yes, they're all different, but you've got such a voice, such a style, right?
Speaker A:You're color grading the way that you.
Speaker A:That way that you pose, and you get expressions.
Speaker A:When I look at your work, I'm like, God, I wish I.
Speaker A:I wish I could make stuff that clean and have that forethought to create this stylistic voice.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I'm out here like a monkey, like, bumping into a doorknob.
Speaker A:I have no idea what I'm doing, and sometimes the sun shines on my butt and I create a good photo.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That's how I feel about being a photographer.
Speaker A:I'm like, yeah, digital's great because I could take 40,000 pictures for that one.
Speaker A:One that you will actually see, right?
Speaker A:Your.
Speaker A:Your style is so clean.
Speaker A:It's so consistent.
Speaker A:It's so beautiful.
Speaker A:Where do you think you'll go with it?
Speaker A:Do you want to stay here?
Speaker A:I saw that.
Speaker A:You know, you.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You said on Instagram, like, hey, I actually shoot color with the recent male model that you had.
Speaker A:And it kind of looks like Wes Anderson thing, right?
Speaker A:And beautiful.
Speaker A:But where do you think you're going?
Speaker A:Are you thinking about shifting style?
Speaker A:Do you want to stay with this?
Speaker A:Because you've made your name in this type of portraiture?
Speaker A:Where do you think this is all going for you?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, thank you for all the.
Speaker B:The praise.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:I live.
Speaker B:Live for that validation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Just kidding.
Speaker B:But thank you.
Speaker B:I appreciate it.
Speaker B:So, to me, the shift is coming because of the business, really.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I'm sort of in my creative work.
Speaker B:I'm starting.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:I'm sort of getting, I don't know, overcome with storytelling and emotion.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I want to do things like, I.
Speaker B:I'm not a particularly religious person, but I love some of the stories from The Bible, right?
Speaker B:And I want to take them and turn them into, like, my own little thing.
Speaker B:Not in a preachy way, because I got nothing to preach, but, like, just from the storytelling part of it, right?
Speaker B:Like, I have a whole vision of doing the whole lot's wife turning around and turning into killer salt.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:I love that vision and story and whatever.
Speaker B:What is.
Speaker B:Where is that going to sell?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:I'm not going to sell that to anybody.
Speaker B:So that kind of stuff is where all my creative vision are all going, is to these storytelling, emotional images that may sell from an art standpoint, but I don't even know how to do that world.
Speaker B:So I have to really step back and say, okay, so I don't want to do headshots, right?
Speaker B:And I don't want to do real estate or whatever, you know, baby newborn photos.
Speaker B:Whatever would I want to do if I was to get out of this kind of almost gothic kind of, you know, style?
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What would I want to do?
Speaker B:And you know, my hero of all time.
Speaker B:And if you don't like her, we'll fight.
Speaker B:That's fine.
Speaker B:Is Annie Leibovitz, right?
Speaker B:I love her.
Speaker B:Love her lover.
Speaker B:And I'm not willing to take comments at this time about her.
Speaker B:She has a style, but she's also really versatile.
Speaker B:And I like that.
Speaker B:I like that she can put out a book that's all fashion images that I didn't even know she shot fashion, right?
Speaker B:And just things like that where you can see it, once you know that she shot it, you're like, oh, yeah, okay.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:I see the.
Speaker B:The invisible string going through all of that.
Speaker B:So I loved editorial my whole life.
Speaker B:I love editorial work.
Speaker B:That's what I really wanted to do.
Speaker B:When I first.
Speaker B:First started, I.
Speaker B:All I heard was horror stories.
Speaker B:You make no money.
Speaker B:It's really hard.
Speaker B:Like, you have to know people.
Speaker B:Now that I'm kind of further along in my career, I do know people, and I'm meeting more people.
Speaker B:And, you know, the style comes a little naturally to me because I've seen so much of it.
Speaker B:I've studied so much of it just from things I like.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It wasn't even, like I sat down to study editorial photography.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yeah, this is what I've been staring at my whole life.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I love it.
Speaker B:And the more research I did on it in the past years, you know, the centerfold, if it's not shot by one of the big photographers, that's making no money.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The big story, the editorial, that's Making no money.
Speaker B:But that's where those hundred page of pages of ads before the table of contents in Vogue magazine, that's where the money is.
Speaker B:And so those advertisers see the, the photographers inside and then pull them over to do some shots for them.
Speaker B:And now you bathe on your money.
Speaker B:And I don't know what you do, but it's whatever rich people do, that's what you start doing.
Speaker B:So that's really where I see myself going.
Speaker B:Like I said, this is going to be a little bit of a plug for them.
Speaker B:But I, I didn't know what to do.
Speaker B:And I found out about a website called Wonderful Machine, right.
Speaker B:And basically what that is is it's kind of like an, a mini agency, right?
Speaker B:You have to apply to be on the site.
Speaker B:They have you as, you know, where you're from.
Speaker B:So Chicago has, I think 10 photographers on there.
Speaker B:And basically they help you as the middleman, getting some jobs from, from clients, right?
Speaker B:So I've applied.
Speaker B:You have to like do a website review.
Speaker B:You send them stuff.
Speaker B:And I applied twice, got denied both times.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, that sucks.
Speaker B:And because I get it, they're like, your work's to retail, meaning, you know, we do the, you know, shots to people who want to come and get portraits done, you know, and they're like, that's not what we're looking for.
Speaker B:But they suggested working with a creative coach basically.
Speaker B:And I kind of rolled my eyes and I'm like, okay, another mentor.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:You know, put it on my list of mentors, which by the way, if any of my mentors are listening.
Speaker B:Nothing against you.
Speaker B:No, they're all great.
Speaker A:They're all great.
Speaker A:They were perfect.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is no slam against them.
Speaker B:But I'm like, okay, what is this person going to show me that, you know, I don't know now, but they gave me a list of people to look through.
Speaker B:They have tons to choose from.
Speaker B:And then they suggested a couple and you get like a 15 minute free call.
Speaker B:So I look through, look through and I found one who is not a photographer.
Speaker B:And that's where it clicked for me.
Speaker B:I'm like, I keep getting advice and everything from photographers.
Speaker B:I should be talking to people who hire photographers.
Speaker B:That's who I should be mentored by.
Speaker B:And so she was a photo editor who used to be the deputy deputy photo editor of Rolling Stone magazine.
Speaker B:And then I thought, well, she's never going to work with me, but it would be a cool 15 minute call.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:So we call, we had a call.
Speaker B:With her.
Speaker B:And she at the end said, I'd love to work with you, and this is what we're going to do.
Speaker B:My goal is to get you an agent by the time you go to New York.
Speaker B:And I said, yep, I'm on board.
Speaker B:And it's not too expensive.
Speaker B:It's like $300 a month.
Speaker B:And you meet for three hours, right?
Speaker B:So three different times for an hour.
Speaker B:We tend to go over an hour each time.
Speaker B:Just chatting it up and whatever.
Speaker B:But I'm not using her, but I'm using.
Speaker B:This mentorship is not only like, we're going through all my images right now and deciding which ones would work for this type of website.
Speaker B:And, you know, I haven't even rebuilt my website yet, but it's.
Speaker B:It's all in the back end getting ready to happen.
Speaker B:But she's also a great connection, right?
Speaker B:You worked in the industry.
Speaker B:You know all these people.
Speaker B:Can you maybe.
Speaker B:I go to New York a lot because obviously I have an apartment there.
Speaker B:I'm like, let's set up a meeting with somebody.
Speaker B:You know, can I just go take someone out to lunch that I've never met before and I would never meet, but they're a photo editor for whoever, Blank brand or Blank magazine.
Speaker B:And so that's been really, really good.
Speaker B:I really suggest it if anyone wants to do it.
Speaker B:I have no poll.
Speaker B:You either get in or you don't.
Speaker B:And these photo editors can say, like, I'm actually not the right person to work with.
Speaker B:You try somebody else or you're just not ready or anything.
Speaker B:And they're kind for the sake of being kind.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They're nice.
Speaker B:Like, I have no problem with my mentor.
Speaker B:She's great, but she's very direct and I appreciate that.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So that's kind of the way my.
Speaker B:My style is going, is I'm styling it to be more marketable.
Speaker B:I don't think I'll ever totally get away from what I do, because that's the stuff I do that's like me.
Speaker B:That's the art.
Speaker B:I would hang up.
Speaker B:My wife wouldn't always, but I would.
Speaker B:And so that's the.
Speaker B:The direction I think I'm going is just to be more marketable without, you know, I'm from the punk rock background.
Speaker B:I don't want to sell out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so I want to do this in a way that stays true to me.
Speaker B:But I get it.
Speaker B:Like, you have to, you know, dance for the man a little bit.
Speaker A:It's a strange part of the industry that no one really talks about it's.
Speaker A:It's kind of like the Illuminati of photography in so far as people that are high end commercial photographers never really tell you how they got there or how to break into it or what's the path to go from A to Z, right?
Speaker A:It's like, I made it to the top of the mountain.
Speaker A:Good luck getting up here.
Speaker A:I'm not telling you the secrets.
Speaker A:I'm not saying that's always the case, but it just feels like it's this mystical land of commercial editorial photography, right?
Speaker A:You hear?
Speaker A:No, it doesn't.
Speaker A:It doesn't pay much and it doesn't.
Speaker A:Well, I used to do editorial for some magazines.
Speaker A:It doesn't pay much at all and it's like net 90.
Speaker A:So good luck ever getting your money.
Speaker A:But it's a really interesting side of the business that the retail photographers like us, it seems like this insurmountable obstacle to get into that line of work.
Speaker A:And when you're told, you know, point blank, yeah, your work just isn't ready, you can either have your ego shredded by that or you can be like, oh, yeah, you guys want punk rock.
Speaker A:And I'm playing classical over here, so I need to learn my three chords and start playing punk rock, right?
Speaker A:And that's really all it is.
Speaker A:It's just that shift into, all right, I have to play in a different stadium, I have to go to a different place, and the rules of the game are a little bit different there.
Speaker A:I love the fact that you're starting to explore that and you're not taking it as a sign of you're not good enough to do the art that you're doing now.
Speaker A:It's just, all right, I need to learn the language of this.
Speaker A:I need to learn the rules of this game so that I can play it right.
Speaker A:Because I'm interested in playing doesn't mean I have to be like an Olympic athlete, but I just want to be able to play the game.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:I had never heard of Wonderful Machine before, so I'm either.
Speaker A:I knew that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't even remember how I found it.
Speaker B:I feel like I listened to a podcast or I watched a something on YouTube or something and it just popped up and I just googled it.
Speaker B:And then, you know, there's a.
Speaker B:You're nervous to apply, right?
Speaker B:You're like, oh, God, I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's literally sending an email with your link to your website.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:You don't write a paragraph about it.
Speaker B:You don't like, do a sob story.
Speaker A:They know when they look at it, they're going to know exactly, this fits or this doesn't fit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you find out within a week.
Speaker B:Like, it's, it's quick.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And which is great because again, you know, right.
Speaker B:I like, the worst part is applying for something or pitching something.
Speaker B:And then you're just waiting and waiting and then you get your hopes up and then your hopes fall down and then they grow up again and you're like, okay, they took so long and they must be thinking a lot about it, so that must be it.
Speaker B:Or they hated it right away.
Speaker B:And like, you know, there's all of that stuff that goes on, but I highly suggest checking it out and at least taking your, your free meeting with one of the, the photo editors.
Speaker B:And again, it may be a hot take, I guess, but, and please don't hate me, all the mentors out there, but consider looking outside of the photography or photographers for your mentors because photographers aren't hiring you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You take, you take the, if you want to go into editorial, right.
Speaker B:Find a photo editor.
Speaker B:You contact the local, or even it's not local, contact the biggest magazine that's kind of near you and just say, can I talk to the photo editor?
Speaker B:Like, what do you guys look for?
Speaker B:Like, you know, I fell into the trap.
Speaker B:I, I look at successful photographers and said, I want to learn what you do.
Speaker B:When really that doesn't work for me because I don't fit in that little cup that they have, you know, and I don't want to force myself to fit into it.
Speaker B:I tried and it, and it.
Speaker B:Square peg, round hole, right.
Speaker B:It's just not, not happening.
Speaker B:But doing it this way, I can find my lane, staying true to who I am and just basically find the clients that fit me.
Speaker B:If it comes down to magazines or commercial work or, you know, if you ever want to do commercial work.
Speaker B:And you, you know, I shoot the way I shoot.
Speaker B:Maybe it's like a gothic clothing line or maybe it's, you know, like, who knows, a band.
Speaker B:Maybe I do more musician stuff.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm open for a lot of that stuff as long as the musicians don't want headshots.
Speaker A:You know, you're going to be, you're going to be the staff photographer at Hot Topic, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker A:And it's going to be nothing but dog collars and skate shoes and it'll be, right, a great job.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:No, I think you've got an amazing amount of self awareness about what drives you.
Speaker A:And there's nothing wrong with that little bit of wisdom to say, yeah, this really isn't fulfilling me the way that I wish it would.
Speaker A:What I've always been a big fan of is finding artists that did buck the system and made it anyway.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's no reason why Tom Waits or Charles Bukowski should really have made it the way they did, other than the fact that, that they were so much off the reservation, that they were interesting to pay attention to.
Speaker A:When you become part of this herd and you're not an individual because you're trying to be something that you're not, that comes across, and I'm not going to throw around the word authentic or anything like that, but I think it's that self awareness to know there was a fork in the road and I took the wrong path.
Speaker A:I'm going back there and I'm going the other way and I'm going to see if this brings me to a better view.
Speaker A:Yeah, it takes a lot of, takes a lot of energy.
Speaker A:It takes a lot of.
Speaker A:It takes a lot of balls to, to do that, to look at what you've got and say, I want to make a shift.
Speaker A:And I'm excited for it because I can hear it in your voice, like, this is really where you want to, where you want to head.
Speaker A:And there's no doubt that you're going to find that.
Speaker A:But I do want to.
Speaker A:I do want to.
Speaker A:While I have you, I do want to talk about twin esteem because, yeah, this kind of, it's.
Speaker A:It's the opposite to kind of everything that you and I are going through.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Where we might have our own self esteem problems.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I don't love getting in front of a camera, but when I do and someone says it's a good picture, I'm like, oh, that feels really good.
Speaker A:So, one, how did it start?
Speaker A:Two, how's it going?
Speaker A:Three, what do you want to do with it?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because I know it's grown into a full 501C3 and it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker A:I've seen you on the news.
Speaker A:It's a big project and it's very important given social media, given the state of just being a teenager these days.
Speaker A:Tell me a little bit more about it, like where it came from, why you're doing it.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Well, really, it became way more important than I even suspected in the beginning.
Speaker B:So what happened is.
Speaker B:So I guess how it really started is over.
Speaker B:Covid.
Speaker B:You know, kids couldn't go to school basically trapped in their rooms all day for a year.
Speaker B:You know, there's not much you could do, you know, in Chicago, in Maine, maybe you could, like, get outside and go do stuff.
Speaker B:You couldn't do that much here.
Speaker B:And so I watched my kids and they would just become, you know, my daughter, especially just a zombie on this phone, right?
Speaker B:They'd look at their phone, they'd stay in the room, or she'd stay in the room, lights off, phone on, and just kind of zone out and watch TikTok, Instagram, whatever.
Speaker B:And it's just video after video of you're not pretty enough or you're not skinny enough, or you're not, you know, popular enough or whatever.
Speaker B:I don't even know what she was watching, but things like that, which I know are on TikTok.
Speaker B:And I could just see it affecting her, right?
Speaker B:She was going into Covid, she was bubbly coming out of COVID She was, you know, down on herself, down on the world, just whatever.
Speaker B:And it breaks my heart, right?
Speaker B:So I didn't really know what to do so much, but I was.
Speaker B:I had a smaller studio at the time, and I was very stuck to my prices, right?
Speaker B:And so somebody contacted me and said, hey, my goddaughter wants to be an actress, like an extra, but, you know, she's not really going to, but we want to kind of put her through the steps of what that is, right?
Speaker B:And one of that is actor headshots.
Speaker B:We'd love to do that.
Speaker B:And so I set my prices.
Speaker B:They couldn't afford my prices, but I.
Speaker B:But we figured it out that a friend of mine would do it and just use my studio, right?
Speaker B:And I just be there.
Speaker B:I just kind of hang out, maybe mentor a little bit to get good shots or whatever.
Speaker B:Well, while that was happening, Emmy came in.
Speaker B:She's 12 years old.
Speaker B:She came in, she went and got her makeup done for it.
Speaker B:It was a big deal.
Speaker B:She came in, she was getting her photo shoot, and I was just talking to her godmother, and her godmother was telling me how, you know, she was having a really hard time at school.
Speaker B:She was, you know, just struggling with her self esteem, really feeling bad about herself.
Speaker B:And in the moment, I just decided, you know, what, like, prices to the wind here, why don't.
Speaker B:I'm going to invite you back in.
Speaker B:I'm going to give you the full treatment.
Speaker B:I'll give you like a handful of digital images, all for free.
Speaker B:Just come back, we're going to do this.
Speaker B:We're going to boost her.
Speaker B:This is going to be fun.
Speaker B:So she went and got her makeup done again that day came in, we shot the photos, it was a great time.
Speaker B:She left.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:High fives all around, right?
Speaker B:I sent out the digital images, I don't know, a few days later.
Speaker B:And her godmother told me that she had just come home from school, just grumpy, just like throwing stuff or whatever.
Speaker B:And her godmother showed her the images and she's like, she stopped and had to stop herself from crying.
Speaker B:You could tell she wasn't going to show it, but she had to stop and like compose herself.
Speaker B:And since those images happened, she's completely a different girl.
Speaker B:She ran for school office, she has tons of friends now she just feels better about herself.
Speaker B:She walks taller.
Speaker B:I thought it would be a one and done type thing, but her godmother kept texting me and she would text me things like, if you think she's forgotten this, you're dead wrong.
Speaker B:She's totally a different person.
Speaker B:She wrote a paragraph about me as somebody who made a difference in her life for school and just.
Speaker B:And this was just one person.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:The amount of pride and just good feeling that filled me, I'm just like that, yes, this is it.
Speaker B:I would have been waiting for it, right?
Speaker B:Somebody was supposed to tell me what to do and I.
Speaker B:And this is what happened.
Speaker B:So I said, I want to do this, but I can't do it for free, right?
Speaker B:Like, I just don't have.
Speaker B:I have to pay rent.
Speaker B:So I hear about all these campaigns, these 40 over 40s and whatever the other ones are, and I'm like, great, I'll just make it a campaign, right?
Speaker B:I will charge whatever.
Speaker B:I don't even remember what I charged.
Speaker B:And it's the tween esteem package and come in and you know, whatever.
Speaker B:And I sold a couple of them.
Speaker B:One woman flew from New Orleans up to Chicago with her daughter to do it.
Speaker B:And I'm like, this is it.
Speaker B:All right, I've got it.
Speaker B:But it was only a handful of them and they all looked the same.
Speaker B:They were the same girl, right?
Speaker B:They were a middle to upper class white girl from the suburbs, right?
Speaker B:Me living in Chicago, it just didn't vibe with me.
Speaker B:That's not.
Speaker B:I'm surrounded by people who aren't that Chicago.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:And I'm like, how?
Speaker B:Like, I don't want this to be this way, so how can I do this?
Speaker B:I was actually on a call with Kat Ford Coates and I was explaining this and I'M like, I, you know, I don't, I don't know what to do, but I need to do this.
Speaker B:And she said, I think maybe you need to look at sponsorship.
Speaker B:So I said, okay.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So I live In, I mean, McDonald's is headquartered in Chicago, right?
Speaker B:And United, I think.
Speaker B:And there's big companies here.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, if I can just go in there, they just write a check for a hundred grand.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:I got it.
Speaker B:Like, that's gotta be easy enough.
Speaker B:But I didn't really know, like, what do you do?
Speaker B:You don't like, go to a McDonald's and say, Can I speak to the owner, please?
Speaker B:Like, I, I don't, I don't know what to do.
Speaker B:So I, I, we have a friend who did fundraising for the ymca, like the national office.
Speaker B:And so I met with him.
Speaker B:My wife suggested just meet with, with Todd and, and talk to him about it.
Speaker B:See what you do.
Speaker B:So I met with him, I explained the whole thing, what I want to do with Tween Esteem, the whole deal.
Speaker B:And he said, you're making it way too, too hard.
Speaker B:He said, just form a nonprofit and, which I didn't know you could just do.
Speaker B:I thought there were steps to take.
Speaker B:I owned tweenesteam.org that night.
Speaker B:You know, like, you don't need anything to have a dot org, which is a little concerning, but you can.
Speaker B:So don't just trust.org because I have a GoDaddy account.
Speaker A:That's about it.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:I mean it's, it's, it's wild how little there is.
Speaker B:Look for 501C3.
Speaker B:That's where, that's where, you know, so we did that and then we started.
Speaker B:My, my wife is really, really, really good at, funny enough, the business part of it, right?
Speaker B:She, she's really good at focusing and getting, you know, lining up like the direction where we're going to do, you know, something down like paperwork, you know, I'm not saying she does paperwork.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:But you know, she's able to do those things.
Speaker B:And I'm, and I'm just not.
Speaker B:This wouldn't have happened without my wife.
Speaker B:It would not have happened.
Speaker B:We, we got together and we, she did all the 500C, 501C3 work like it's a, hours long application you have to do, then you mail it in and it takes 8 to 16 months for you to find out.
Speaker B:So we're like, okay, I guess we just wait and we just, we just started building what do we want this program to look like, which was just photos.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I just started getting people in and I said, in the long term I want to be paid.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I don't want this to be free, but I'll donate the first 25 sessions.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:So our first year we, we did it and I did all the photos for free and we, we had a gallery show.
Speaker B:At the end, we took donor.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I'm all over the place here.
Speaker B:I apologize.
Speaker B:But we, we were donor funded, right.
Speaker B:So we would take all the money that we got from donors and we used it for our gallery show.
Speaker B:At the end, the company Pro Prints donated all the images.
Speaker B:So Everybody gets a 24x36 framed canvas, right.
Speaker B:That we.
Speaker B:That are in the, in the gallery show.
Speaker B:And then when the gallery show's done, they can take it home.
Speaker B:Not everybody can fit a 24x36 in their homes because we're working with some families who are, you know, really from struggling houses or small houses and they have many siblings and whatever.
Speaker B:So Pro Friends also threw in an 11 by 17 canvas that we can give them the choice.
Speaker B:Now do you want something smaller?
Speaker B:You can have it.
Speaker B:They're all right behind me actually.
Speaker B:These are all the, this is the current class of tweenist theme.
Speaker B:So anyway, so we did that, we got our 501C3 back, threw a big party, just my wife and I.
Speaker B:And then we, we focused more on that first year.
Speaker B:We had a lot of people come in that there was no, no skin in the game.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:That's why people talk about not having free shoots because people cancel on you last second and all of that stuff.
Speaker B:And we also thought, all right, I'm giving these kids a great photo experience.
Speaker B:Their self esteem is boosted.
Speaker B:It's awesome.
Speaker B:And then they leave and then life continues.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:They didn't learn anything.
Speaker B:They just got the short kind of boost.
Speaker B:So my wife's idea was, well, why don't we create more of a program?
Speaker B:And so we worked on it and we created a six month program where every month the class, the kids come in and they do.
Speaker B:What we try and do is do like an activity and then like a learning thing.
Speaker B:So for instance, we had somebody come in and talk about social, social media dangers to the kids and just how to kind of operate on social media.
Speaker B:And then also had them work with a fashion designer on like designing a jacket.
Speaker B:And we brought them to an opera, you know, at the Lyric Opera House in Chicago.
Speaker B:We've, we brought them all to get facials and talk about self Care like it's all this stuff.
Speaker B:And then we also had a corresponding, just a couple times, a parent group.
Speaker B:So the kids would be in one room doing whatever and the parents would all be in another room kind of having a round table.
Speaker B:And there was a psychologist in there with them and they just sort of talk.
Speaker B:And we got big feedback about that, how that's just so great.
Speaker B:Parents now hear, oh, you're struggling with the same thing.
Speaker B:It's not just my kid who's struggling with this.
Speaker B:And what do you do?
Speaker B:Oh, cool.
Speaker B:This is what I do.
Speaker B:And it's been a great, great, great, great thing.
Speaker B:So at the end of last year, what we do is we do a survey at the beginning of.
Speaker B:Of tween esteem and the survey at the end of the kids and parents and we hear, what did you like, what didn't you like?
Speaker B:And all of that.
Speaker B:And they overwhelmingly said, we want more sessions.
Speaker B:Which we were surprised by.
Speaker B:We went once a month for six months.
Speaker B:And we're like, that's a lot for you guys, right?
Speaker B:Nope, they want more.
Speaker B:So this year we're currently interviewing our new class.
Speaker B:So to get it down to 20 kids.
Speaker B:And it's going to be two sessions a month now for six months and then still end with the photo shoot and then end with the gallery show.
Speaker B:And just last December, I guess maybe it was November, we were given our first grant.
Speaker B:We got a $25,000 grant from, from Joyce foundation here in Chicago.
Speaker B:And that is huge for us.
Speaker B:It does quite fund a year of programming.
Speaker B:But that with the donations and hopefully more grants now, grants are kind of like.
Speaker B:We consider the Joyce foundation sort of a gateway drug for these grants.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's like, okay, great.
Speaker B:Now other people see that we were worthy enough to get this grant, so maybe they'll give us grants too.
Speaker B:So we're really focused on that this year.
Speaker B:And we have a great board.
Speaker B:I don't know if have you ever seen the commercial Like a Girl by the brand Always.
Speaker B:It's making the rounds right now.
Speaker B:Again, a few years ago.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It highly suggest watching it Like a Girl from the Always.
Speaker B:It just was voted best super bowl commercial of all time.
Speaker B:And so the creative director for that commercial is on our advisory board.
Speaker B:Like, we have a really, really great, great team.
Speaker B:I can't name them all, but they're, they're, they're great.
Speaker B:So doing this and we get to talk to these kids, we get to see these kids and we see them not only feel better about themselves, but they create friendships One.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I hope he's okay with me telling the story, but it was in public, so I'm sure he will be one of the kids dads.
Speaker B:It was a boy.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker B:We don't have many boys in the program.
Speaker B:It's open to boys, but just.
Speaker B:I think it's the photo shoot actually that turns the boys off and they don't really know.
Speaker B:This year we have a lot more boys applicants, so we're hoping to have more of a mix.
Speaker B:But last class we had one boy and he.
Speaker B:His dad was an ex NFL player.
Speaker B:I'm six four.
Speaker B:He was taller than me, he was bigger than me.
Speaker B:Just a huge guy, right?
Speaker B:And he was at the gallery show and he's just looming over everyone.
Speaker B:He's a nice guy.
Speaker B:He looming every.
Speaker B:Just big.
Speaker B:And he comes up to me, it's a crowded room.
Speaker B:And he shakes my hand and he pulls me in for kind of like a.
Speaker B:Like a chest to chess talk.
Speaker B:And he said, thank you for what you've done for my son and everything.
Speaker B:And I'm like, great.
Speaker B:So I go to pull.
Speaker B:To lean back again and he pulls me back in again and he goes, thank you for turning to helping him become a man.
Speaker B:Thank you for.
Speaker B:And he rattles off a bunch of things and then he just starts crying and like crying on my shoulder.
Speaker B:And like I said, it's a big ex NFL player.
Speaker B:And that was another thing that just hit me with, oh yeah, we're.
Speaker B:We are making real strides and progress with these kids.
Speaker B:And he told me that when he's struggling, sometimes his son will say, dad, have you tried doing this, this and this?
Speaker B:Which are things that he learned in our program.
Speaker B:And so it's.
Speaker B:It's this ripple effect that's going on where we help them with their self esteem, but because of that, it affects the people around them as well.
Speaker B:And it's just.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:The reason it sounds like I'm rambling, the reason I am rambling is because there's so much emotion and feeling that not only goes into this, but comes out of it that it.
Speaker B:It haywires my brain a little bit.
Speaker B:And you know, it's hard to even put into like a nice little talking point.
Speaker B:It's just so important.
Speaker A:I can hear it in your voice.
Speaker A:I can see you and see in your eyes, they got wider and a little bit more of a sparkle when you're talking about this.
Speaker A:And it's clear that you're just on the right path and you're doing the right thing.
Speaker A:With this because it is making a difference.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There is nothing better than having a parent come to you and say, you have no idea the impact that you made.
Speaker A:Because oftentimes you don't have any idea.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're like, I think it went well.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:I couldn't tell you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They didn't give me much back.
Speaker A:But to know that you're affecting lives at a time in these kids lives where you need it more than ever and you're able to give them not only something for that quick dopamine boost.
Speaker A:Yeah, I look good, right?
Speaker A:These will be great profile pictures.
Speaker A:My friends will be jealous, but it's giving them the tools that they need to just navigate life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And not only the program for the next level was the programming.
Speaker B:The photos were great like you said, they were a great short.
Speaker B:Dopamine hit the programming, took it to the next level.
Speaker A:That's phenomenal.
Speaker A:Has there been any interest in spreading it out a little bit more, making it larger franchising, if you will?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Sure, yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So our goal, our long term goal is to make this countrywide.
Speaker B:We want to be like the Boys and Girls Club, right.
Speaker B:We want to just be kind of all over.
Speaker B:We want to steam Rochester, we want to steam Dallas, you know, all this.
Speaker B:But we want to make sure that Tween Esteem Chicago is a tightly run organization first.
Speaker B:So what we're really going to do is.
Speaker B:I thought it was more like a three year, four year plan before we would kind of start spreading out.
Speaker B:But I think what we're going to do is just concentrate in Chicago for a couple more years and get that to where it is kind of a franchise, Right.
Speaker B:Where we can pick it up and move it over here and say, all right now, you know, whatever.
Speaker B:We'll say Twinstein Boston.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:So in Boston we have to find someone to run the program, Right.
Speaker B:Then we have to find somebody who find a photographer, which there's a list of rules that you have to like meet some qualifications to be the photographer.
Speaker B:And that's where I come in.
Speaker B:And then, you know, just.
Speaker B:We have to get a border.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:We're going to have like an umbrella organization which we're the board of directors for.
Speaker B:I'm not sure if we need like local board of directors.
Speaker B:I, again, I'm out of.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm above my.
Speaker B:Or over my head in water with that conversation.
Speaker B:I don't know if.
Speaker A:Get your wife on here.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:But what we're really Doing is because it's important to us to pay everybody.
Speaker B:Every speaker we have gets paid.
Speaker B:Every makeup artist we have gets paid.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:I get paid now.
Speaker B:And it's all above board.
Speaker B:Like you can look it up.
Speaker B:It's all like, we're, what is it, 990, right?
Speaker B:Everyone can see who gets paid and what they get paid.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I'm a contractor.
Speaker B:I'm not like, I'm kind of on the books as just a contractor.
Speaker B:I'm a non voting board member.
Speaker B:The only reason I'm on the board is to kind of make sure that they don't decide, you know, what we should do instead of Tween Esteem.
Speaker B:Let's do like face painting and like now, like, come on, let's stay on track, you know, So I just want to make sure that it stays the way the vision is, but I have no control there.
Speaker B:You know, my wife is the executive director, but that's a non paid role right now and she.
Speaker B:We're just trying to build it up, right?
Speaker B:We're trying to build it into something that could really last and not just be a, you know, a couple year thing and then it burns out.
Speaker B:And I get contacted a lot.
Speaker B:I'm sure I will after this because any podcast I do, I get a bunch of, hey, I'd love to be a part of it.
Speaker B:You know, I live in Blank Miami, right.
Speaker B:And I say, great, I can't help you right now.
Speaker B:Like I, and I can say, all right, I'll, I'll reach out to you when I'm not, I'm not going to remember in a few years, but I highly suggest do so.
Speaker B:People say, can I do this in my town?
Speaker B:And I say, yes.
Speaker B:You can't use the name Tweenisteam because that's all trademarked and everything.
Speaker B:But I highly recommend doing something like this in your own town.
Speaker B:You don't need me or, or, or Tween Esteem to do it.
Speaker B:And you can run it as a campaign if you want.
Speaker B:You, you can try and make money that way.
Speaker B:I will say changes the program a little bit when, when you're doing it for, you know, the same amount of money, like a $1,200 package or something.
Speaker B:It changes it a little bit.
Speaker B:But you know, kids who can afford it also have self esteem issues.
Speaker B:So it's not like this is only for kids from disadvantaged homes, you know.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:Like anyone in that age range is struggling.
Speaker B:You know, it's not just poor kids that kill themselves.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, it's There, there's a lot of, lot of problems going on with social media and just mental health in our youth right now that nobody doesn't need it.
Speaker A:And I agree with that 100%.
Speaker A:There's a, there's a local program here run out of the high school and the high school has got 20 seniors in it.
Speaker A:I think there's like 75 kids the whole high school.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Really small.
Speaker A:And there's a, there's a group that are relatively under.
Speaker A:I don't like using the word underprivileged, but they have some harder lives than other kids.
Speaker A:And so there's a lot of after school programs for them.
Speaker A:There's like 4 think 4 H type stuff, right?
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And so there's a community garden that is attached to the studio that I have.
Speaker A:And they would come in and they work in, they learn about growing their own food and, and yada, yada, yada.
Speaker A:And I did their portraits for them a couple of years ago.
Speaker A:I just said, come on in and I'll just shoot everybody that's in this program.
Speaker A:And I shot them all.
Speaker A:And it was part of, I think I did like a come as you are program years ago.
Speaker A:And it was part of that just to see, like, that's me dipping my toe in something similar.
Speaker A:And I got so much fulfillment from it because these kids were like, holy.
Speaker A:Like, I've never seen this.
Speaker A:I didn't know this was a thing that people did, like.
Speaker A:And, and I look like a rock star and I look like a celebrity.
Speaker A:And you know, it made me feel good just to realize, oh yeah, what we do isn't about selling the wall art.
Speaker A:It's about that feeling that that kid has right there because he's never going to forget it.
Speaker A:She's never going to forget that feeling of self worth and that feeling of I'm just as good as anyone else.
Speaker A:I can only imagine getting that for you day in and day out.
Speaker A:Beyond the photography, seeing the relationships between parents and kids get stronger, seeing relationships between parents of, you know, different families getting together and realizing that there is this communal bond that, yeah, we're all going through the same thing.
Speaker A:You're not alone in doing that's got to be unbelievably satisfying.
Speaker A:This, this currency of kindness that you're, you're putting out there.
Speaker A:I can't wait to see where it goes.
Speaker A:I cannot wait to see where.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker B:I'm glad you mentioned celebrity too, because real quick, I just want to say, like, what we want to show them is These celebrities that they see on the covers of magazines, right, when they come in for their photo shoot, they get makeup done, we do the photo shoot.
Speaker B:And when I retouch them, I take off, you know, if you have blemishes or whatever, I take that off.
Speaker B:I'm not adjusting body type.
Speaker B:I'm not adjusting anything like that.
Speaker B:And then when they see the images, I can say, you know, that celebrity you love, see, it's just light.
Speaker B:It's just light.
Speaker B:And a photo, right?
Speaker B:And, and you look just as good as anybody.
Speaker B:Your heroes that you see on magazine covers, they do just what you just did.
Speaker B:And when you see that on the COVID and you think, oh, I'll never look like that.
Speaker B:You do.
Speaker B:You just don't see yourself like that.
Speaker B:You know, in the bathroom light, none of us look like that, you know, and so it's just like, this is how this all works.
Speaker B:And look, now you got a little kind of view behind the mirror or the curtain here.
Speaker B:You get some smoke and mirrors behind there, and you see what it is.
Speaker B:And I think that really helps too, because they, they now that the body image issues and the, you know, just, just the things they see that are.
Speaker B:Seem unattainable, they're not, they're a little shady, right?
Speaker B:It's like, yeah, they just, they kind of look like what you see.
Speaker A:You know, you're demystifying it all.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're showing, like, showing behind the curtain, right?
Speaker A:What you see on TikTok isn't real.
Speaker A:What you see in the magazines isn't real.
Speaker A:And it's really important to understand, like, it has its place, I suppose, but it doesn't mean that you have to hold yourself to that standard.
Speaker A:And I, I love doing that.
Speaker A:I love showing people like, hey, you don't have to do body shaping.
Speaker A:You don't have to do all this retouching and all this stuff because you're beautiful, just raw.
Speaker A:It's just a matter of light and composition and just showing people who they truly are.
Speaker A:Rather than saying, you have to be this other version of you to be accepted, you can be exactly who you are.
Speaker A:And that's such a beautiful concept to get across to kids.
Speaker A:I, I just, I.
Speaker A:It really blows me away.
Speaker A:I've been wanting to talk to you about this for a long time because I wanted to hear it from you.
Speaker A:I didn't want to just read your website or go on the, you know, on the project's 501c3 page.
Speaker A:And I can get the marketing material, what I can't get is the emotion that you have in it.
Speaker A:It's clear that you and your wife and this board of directors have ingrained this in the fabric of who you are.
Speaker A:And I can't think of anyone better to be doing it than someone that feels that passionate about it.
Speaker A:So I love, I love, love, love what you're doing, and I'd love at WPPI to maybe find you and have a meal and sit down and kind of continue this a little bit more after we're celebrating your, you know, your number one win in group photography.
Speaker A:If I can pull you away from your entourage, that is.
Speaker B:I'm going up against Eric Manning.
Speaker B:So I don't know.
Speaker A:Now I have split loyalty.
Speaker A:I don't know what to do.
Speaker A:I can't wait to shake your hand in person.
Speaker A:Thank you for being here.
Speaker A:Where can people find all your stuff?
Speaker A:I know it's versions of Josh Beaton, but where, where do you want folks to go to to read about all of this for?
Speaker B:If you want to know about tween esteem, it's tweenesteam.org that's easy.
Speaker B:I mean, there's lots of information there.
Speaker B:If you feel like you want to donate, you're welcome to donate.
Speaker B:So that's where you're going to get all of your information.
Speaker B:It'll have the links to all their social media from there.
Speaker B:I'm Josh Beaton.
Speaker B:Photo on Instagram.
Speaker B:That's probably the easiest.
Speaker B:Or Josh Beaton.com whatever.
Speaker A:Well, I'm just thinking if there are commercial editors out there and they're looking for a photographer that's listening to this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:I want them to know where to find you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Josh beaton.com in a probably a month.
Speaker B:You know, commercial people.
Speaker B:But yeah, I, I look forward.
Speaker B:Anyone has any questions, I'm an open book when it comes to all that stuff.
Speaker B:We're not trying, we're not trying to be the only nonprofit that helps Kit, you know, so, like, let's, let's do it.
Speaker B:Let's get more, more kids behind or in front of your lenses.
Speaker A:You're amazing, my friend.
Speaker A:I'm so glad we had a chance to do this.
Speaker A:And I really look forward to seeing you out in Vegas in a couple of weeks.
Speaker A:If there's anything that you need from me, if there's any way that I can help you promote or do anything, you just let me know because I'd love to use whatever small platform that I have to just kind of spread the word.
Speaker A:So you tell me how me or anybody else can help.
Speaker A:And I'm sure you'd have an army at your disposal, so.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker A:Hang out for just one second.
Speaker A:But I'll say goodbye here.
Speaker A:Thank you again.
Speaker A:I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker B:You bet.
