062 - Ashleigh Taylor: When Creative Integrity Costs You Everything
What do you do when your business feels personal and a bad year makes you question everything?
Ashleigh Taylor is a portrait and boudoir photographer based near Los Angeles whose work blends editorial edge with raw emotion. She's built a reputation for creating images that feel like they belong in a magazine, but she's also someone who isn't afraid to talk about the hard parts of running a creative business. In this conversation, Ashleigh opens up about navigating one of the toughest years of her career and what it taught her about identity, resilience, and staying true to yourself when the ground shifts beneath you.
We talk about the difference between business failure and personal failure, why hobbies that cost money might be the best investment you make, and how to show up for clients when you're barely holding it together yourself. This one gets real.
What You'll Learn
- Why separating your identity from your business might save you when things go wrong
- How investing in hobbies that bring you joy, even expensive ones, can pull you out of creative burnout and remind you who you are outside of work
- What it means to mask your struggles during client sessions and when that's necessary versus harmful to your own wellbeing
- Why the most talented photographers aren't always the ones who succeed, and what actually matters more than technical skill when building a sustainable business
- How to recognize when you're falling into victim mindset and the practical steps Ashleigh takes to snap out of it
- What creative integrity looks like in practice, including when to turn down lucrative work that doesn't align with your values
- Why having a trusted hair and makeup artist on your team creates transition time that helps you land emotionally before a shoot starts
- How to market yourself from a place of confidence rather than constantly trying to prove your worth to potential clients
- The difference between authentic coaching and manipulation, and what red flags to watch for when investing in education
- Why doing creative work without attaching outcomes or expectations to it is the hardest and most important practice for long-term sustainability
Guest Resources
Ashleigh Taylor
Portrait & Boudoir Photographer, Los Angeles
Website: ashleightaylorportrait.com
Instagram: @ashleightaylorportrait
Facebook: Ashleigh Taylor Photography
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Host: Matt Stagliano
Stonetree Creative, Greenwood, Maine
Generator is a podcast about the creative process, personal growth, and what it means to build something meaningful. Hosted by portrait photographer Matt Stagliano.
Keywords: portrait photography business, boudoir photography, creative burnout, photography business challenges, Los Angeles photographer, mental health for photographers, business identity, creative integrity, Sue Bryce mentorship, photography coaching, overcoming business failure, photographer mindset, creative hobbies
Transcript
Well, I can't pinpoint exactly when I first met Ashley Taylor.
Speaker A: know it must have been at the: Speaker A:Well, here it is seven years later and I finally got a chance to sit down with her and have a real heart to heart talk.
Speaker A:Ashley is a high end portrait boudoir and editorial photographer in the Santa Barbara area and she's been doing this for over 15 years.
Speaker A:She's a fellow with the Portrait Masters and there's really only a few of those in the entire world.
Speaker A:And she was handpicked by Sue Bryce to be one of her official mentors in that business model years ago.
Speaker A:She mentors her own students in the business of photography and produces a whole slew of educational content ranging from marketing to advertising to shooting in small spaces.
Speaker A:Sure, she's got the accolades and the awards from all the competitions, but what I've always liked about Ashley is that she always makes everyone around her feel better.
Speaker A:They smile more, they laugh more, and she just has this energy that is infectious.
Speaker A:There's a lot of information and a lot of articles out there about Ashley and what she does.
Speaker A:So I just wanted to sit down and talk like we would if we were hanging out in the backyard having a cocktail.
Speaker A:We talk about competition and coaching creative integrity and why a crow has a certain point of view.
Speaker A:We get into the concept of client sovereignty and what we as photographers are and are not emotionally responsible for.
Speaker A:In a session, Ashley gets really vulnerable and talks about some of the challenges she faces as a business owner that's constantly looking to grow and learn and try new things.
Speaker A:Now, while it's common that I never start an episode the same way, for this one, I actually forgot to hit record at the beginning because we just got into the conversation.
Speaker A: d of our discussion about why: Speaker A:But believe me, there is so much great stuff here, we didn't even bother to try to re record it.
Speaker A:We talked for well over an hour and I don't think there was a moment of downtime.
Speaker A:It was a ton of fun.
Speaker A:As she would say, we got real scandalocious.
Speaker A:So let's do just that.
Speaker A:Let's get scandalocious and start the show with my guest, Ashley Taylor.
Speaker A:We all know shit's been a little weird lately, right?
Speaker A:And, and everybody's just finding their way to deal their way to cope.
Speaker A:But it's been nine months now this year of just feeling oppressive weight on our shoulders, right?
Speaker A:And as creatives, as business owners.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Everything kind of comes down to.
Speaker A:At least I know for me, my happiness comes from is my business succeeding or is it not?
Speaker A:And if it's not, what do I need to look at and fix?
Speaker A:And a lot of times I realize, kind of like you were just mentioning, I fall into this weird victim mindset, right?
Speaker A:No, it's like, eeyore, nobody likes me, nobody cares.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And there's just this gray cloud that follows me and thanks for noticing me.
Speaker A:You know, and I always feel like a little bit of a victim.
Speaker A:And then like you said, I think about what sue says and, you know, it's pointing right back at me.
Speaker A:It's never about the other people.
Speaker A:It's about, am I doing the work?
Speaker A:Nah, I'm probably not doing the work that I need to do.
Speaker A:Am I marketing the way that I need to market?
Speaker A:Probably not.
Speaker A:Am I taking care of myself?
Speaker A:Yeah, probably not.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So it's no wonder that things aren't going well.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker A:What do you.
Speaker A:What do you do to get out of that?
Speaker C:I mean, for me, it's like, and this is really hard, but it's something that I just very recently realized, but it was like a coping strategy before that I'd forgotten, which is like, what outside of my business actually brings me joy.
Speaker C:That doesn't make me any money and perhaps costs me money, which is actually the most scary part of the whole thing because, like, you know, hobbies are damn expensive.
Speaker C:But, like, actually going and doing hobbies that you are core to your, like, inner child, for lack of a better term, like, what you've always loved doing is such a good way to, like, remember who you are.
Speaker C:Like, for example, this year I started taking singing lessons because used to love.
Speaker C:Well, I'm a musical theater kid, but, you know, because it wasn't something that I was gonna pursue professionally.
Speaker C:Stopped singing like 20 years ago.
Speaker C:And it's like singing lessons are spoiler alert, really expensive.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker C:Like, why would you pay that level of money for something that's going to bring you no money back?
Speaker C:And I had to have many friends kind of have an intervention with me and say, like, but it brings you joy.
Speaker C:And like, what is your joy worth to you?
Speaker C:And like, you know, if you're so.
Speaker C:Because at this point, 20 years out from singing, so self conscious, I know my voice isn't where it was 20 years ago.
Speaker C:I know I've lost, like all proper technique, you know, so it's not like I could just join a choir or something.
Speaker C:Like, I just I really needed, like, a personal trainer for my voice, but they were right.
Speaker C:Like, it did remind me so much of, like, who I am.
Speaker C:And it's weird, like, how much, like, personal development.
Speaker C:I think in any creative pursuit, there's, like, a personal development aspect of it that, like, can't be.
Speaker C:Like, you're always like, oh, this all.
Speaker B:Relates back to everything that I'm doing with my business and my life, even.
Speaker C:If I'm not intending it to.
Speaker C:Because your voice is about letting yourself be seen.
Speaker C:And when your soul is crushed because you're going through a hard time and you don't want to be seen, it's.
Speaker B:Really actually important to go to someone who's gonna, like, force you to let.
Speaker C:Yourself be seen and use your voice when your voice is trying to be, like, silenced or told that it's wrong.
Speaker C:And then I recently, like, real recently, like two weeks ago, went back to dance class, which is something that I was doing very consistently for many years.
Speaker C:And then I hurt my neck.
Speaker C:And I don't really know if it was because of dance class or not, but I blamed it on dance, and it kept me out of, like, even taking photos for a few weeks.
Speaker C:So I kind of got this, like, attitude like, well, that's not for me.
Speaker B:That's going to injure me.
Speaker C:I can't.
Speaker C:I going to lose money.
Speaker B:I can't hurt my neck, you know?
Speaker C:And so I took, like, years off, and now it's real humbling to go back, but it's also like, oh, yeah, this is, like, who I am.
Speaker C:And it's like, photography is who I am.
Speaker C:But when you're doing it for clients, it's not always who you are.
Speaker B:Even if you really like the photos.
Speaker C:That you create for clients, it's not always the work that you would do to feed your soul.
Speaker C:I guess so.
Speaker C:And for some people, maybe photography is their only discipline.
Speaker C:So it might just be like, investing in creative shoots, which is something I also like to do.
Speaker C:Spoiler alert.
Speaker B:Those also tend to cost a lot.
Speaker C:Of or not a lot of money, but, like, at least a few hundred dollars.
Speaker C:When you're in, like, a scarcity mindset, everything is falling apart.
Speaker C:The world is coming after you.
Speaker C:Clients are difficult.
Speaker C:It can be hard to, like, even want to spend a few hundred dollars knowing that you're not gonna get maybe any financial return from it.
Speaker C:And if you're even thinking about, like, oh, well, entertain competitions, then you've already kind of killed the game because you're, like, putting an outcome on the thing that's the, that's actually the big lesson is not putting an outcome on the thing that you're trying to do.
Speaker C:Like, I don't have a goal necessarily to perform in front of people by a certain date with singing.
Speaker C:I don't know if I will ever perform in front people, but I just know I like to do it right now and maybe I'll feel confident enough to do it.
Speaker C:But it's like, I think the minute that your creative endeavor has, again, it's not a commercial endeavor, but a true creative endeavor has a outcome attached to it or some sort of like, external component like awards, visibility, views, like even a podcast like this to some extent, I would imagine, like, you have to start it just like, well, if no.
Speaker B:One listens, that's cool.
Speaker B:Because if you like, if you start with like, well, I want to be.
Speaker C:Whatever, top 10 on the I, whatever Apple podcast, whatever.
Speaker C:I would think that metric, like, kills your.
Speaker C:For me, at least it would kill my like, ability to keep moving forward.
Speaker A:And it really does.
Speaker A:I think anytime we attach expectations to a creative output, we're self sabotaging.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we don't for those of us in business.
Speaker A:And I'll speak for me, I know that when I'm thinking about something that has expectations tied to it, it's usually, how am I going to make money from this?
Speaker A:I'm spending money on this creative session.
Speaker A:It's not bringing anything in.
Speaker A:I better use it to market.
Speaker A:And I'm hoping that it brings in enough to kind of make up for it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's why we do it.
Speaker A:It's kind of like our, our advertising.
Speaker A:But I find that what I resonated with in what you were saying was when we have the expectations tied to it, it takes some of that joy out, right.
Speaker A:And it kind of puts you in that mindset of like, this sucks.
Speaker A:Nothing I'm doing is really what I want.
Speaker A:And you just don't have the same approach to it.
Speaker A:You don't, you don't take the shackles off, if you will.
Speaker A:I know that whenever I'm shooting with expectations in mind, oh my God, I've got to get this personal branding shoot right or I'm never getting a client again.
Speaker A:Or I've got to do this because they came to me and they think that I'm going to give them the most amazing photo they've ever seen of themselves.
Speaker A:Well, I haven't slept in two days.
Speaker A:I hope I give them something that is at least in focus.
Speaker A:You know, that's like where my head is at and it's never a good energy to bring in.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which is where all those hobbies.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Can offset that.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, getting singing lessons in the LA area.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're going to be a bit pricey, I'm sure.
Speaker A:Come up here in Maine and it'll be like a buck fifty an hour.
Speaker A:I guess so.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But, you know, the.
Speaker A:The hobbies are what keep us fueled.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's what kind of resets the dopamine and gets us again.
Speaker A:And whether it's singing or dancing.
Speaker A:I was going to ask you about the musical theater stuff because I know you went to film school.
Speaker A:I know, you know, it's Rocky Horror time of year.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you got to be getting super happy about that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, it's always Rocky Horror time.
Speaker B:Let me correct you.
Speaker A:Is the true fan, right?
Speaker B:Let me correct you, but it's just a more heightened time of year.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We often talk about photography, especially the type of photography that we do.
Speaker A:You do a lot more boudoir and editorial and fashion than I do.
Speaker A:I'm predominantly personal, branding, headshots, some fine art.
Speaker A:And I know that a lot of times we're selling things that make people feel empowered, or at least that's our goal, is to make them feel like a better version of themselves.
Speaker A:Have there ever been times where you're doing that, but behind the scenes you don't feel empowered about yourself at all?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're going through a rough time or whatever.
Speaker A:How do you reconcile bringing that amazing energy and creative talent to a shoot when you're feeling like dog inside, you know?
Speaker A:And, like, how.
Speaker A:How do you reconcile that?
Speaker A:Is it just a mask or is it a lot of coffee?
Speaker A:Like, how do you.
Speaker A:How do you get through times like that?
Speaker B:All of the above?
Speaker C:No, like, since.
Speaker C:Since I have been going through it, it's like.
Speaker C:I think it's multipronged.
Speaker C:And some days you're better at it than others in quite, like, honest terms.
Speaker C:And I also, like, in a.
Speaker C:This shouldn't be the answer, but I do think sometimes, like, the client also matters because I have had some, like, clients with, like, amazing stories, or they come to me and they, you know, say, like, something about how much the shoot means to me.
Speaker C:And that kind of always.
Speaker C:It should.
Speaker C:I don't know if it's the people pleaser in me or, like, the external validation shouldn't matter, but something like that tends to always snap me, like, more locked into the shoot.
Speaker C:Like, when there's a clear.
Speaker C:And all shoots have a clear mission.
Speaker C:But when There is that clear.
Speaker C:Like, you know, you just connect with some people.
Speaker C:Like, for example, I just had a shoot a couple weeks ago where, like, a past client, client bought the shoot for her, like, best friend as a maternity shoot as a surprise.
Speaker C:And then when they walked in, she was like, it's Ashley Taylor.
Speaker B:And I was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker B:Like, especially after the year I've had.
Speaker C:I've really had the, like, ear mindset of, like, no one likes me, no one cares about me.
Speaker C:Like, massive, not.
Speaker C:I don't know if imposter syndrome is the right word, but, like, feeling like instead of I'm in this difficult situation, like, everyone on planet Earth doesn't like me anymore.
Speaker C:And so, like, to hear someone say, like, I follow you on Instagram.
Speaker C:I've always wanted a photo shoot.
Speaker B:My best friend got this for me.
Speaker C:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:Like, it instantly was like, well, shit.
Speaker B:I gotta, like, level.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, I had her own it.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I've got to be Ashley Taylor in this moment.
Speaker B:And, like, not to sound this sounds.
Speaker C:So cringe, but, like, I kind of forgot I'm Ashley Taylor.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:Like, I kind of, like, felt like.
Speaker B:Well, when I post on Instagram these days, I get to nine likes.
Speaker B:So everyone hates me.
Speaker B:No one cares.
Speaker C:So to get that immediate feedback is, like, amazing.
Speaker C:But when you don't get that immediate feedback, you still have to, like, show up and deliver the best photos.
Speaker C:Even though this year has been so hard, I actually think I've delivered the best photos I've delivered ever.
Speaker C:Because my skills have, like, I'm 15 years in.
Speaker C:My skills are just at a current level.
Speaker B:So masking, unfortunately for me, is a.
Speaker C:Large part of things.
Speaker C:Like, I think I've masked my whole life, so I do have this.
Speaker C:People don't understand that Wednesday Adam lives.
Speaker B:Inside of me because I come off like Malibu Barbie when inside.
Speaker B:Like, I'm Enid from the Wednesday show exteriorly, but actually inside, I'm Wednesday Adams.
Speaker B:So, like, people don't know that about me.
Speaker B:So unless they really know me.
Speaker C:And then they're like, oh, yeah, so there is that masking component.
Speaker C:But then also, I always try to do my best to, like, in the morning, clear my energy, like, with some breathing and just setting an intention.
Speaker C:I think that's really important.
Speaker C:Like, I always ask, like, please let me be, like, a clear channel for, like, what needs to come through today and let me be able to, like, find the creativity and see this person and let them come out in front of the camera.
Speaker C:And I also like having a hair makeup artist that you love and trust on your team.
Speaker C:For me, it's such a godsend because they are spending that first part of the shoot with the client.
Speaker C:And sometimes, like, when I'm not feeling my best, she's able to, like, I don't even know if she knows she's doing it, but she jumps in, she starts asking questions.
Speaker C:She's doing, like, the warmup so that, like, I'm kind of able to, like, set up the light, set up the backdrop, whatever, and it gives me, like, some time to ease into the, like, it gives me that transition time between, like, outside me and in the shoot me.
Speaker C:And I never.
Speaker C:I try not to ever, like, check emails or check anything during.
Speaker C:That's been a policy I've had, like, since the beginning of my business, that when you're in a photo shoot, you don't want to check texts or emails because anything that could, like, come and take you, you know, you don't want to get that one text for that one email.
Speaker C:That's really stressful.
Speaker C:And then all of a sudden, that's all you're like, my.
Speaker C:Or that's how my mind works.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:How other people's mind works is, like, looping on it.
Speaker C:So I've always kind of had a policy that, like, I'm in, but sometimes it's still needs, like, a.
Speaker C:A transitory period for me, like, to really, like, settle and then feel like I can fully connect in.
Speaker C:And so the hair and makeup happening first gives me, like, it actually gives me an hour and a half to, like, fully land, you know, obviously.
Speaker C:So I would say I'm masking a little bit during the meet and greet with the client.
Speaker C:And then we're, like, doing very business stuff, like, let me see the outfits you brought.
Speaker C:Like, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker C:And then I'm like.
Speaker C:And then I, like, have some time to, like, really land in the space while my hair and makeup artist is doing hair makeup.
Speaker C:So that doesn't work for everyone if they don't have hair and makeup.
Speaker C:But I do think it's, like, a really good thing.
Speaker A:No, it's a great thing.
Speaker A:And I know that I spoke to Ben Markham recently, and we were touching on the same thing.
Speaker A:That a good hair and makeup artists can really set the tone for the entire day, whether it's good or, like, good or bad.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But what I found is I have a couple of hair and makeup artists that I absolutely love working.
Speaker A:I know when they come, they're Gonna make the client feel incredible.
Speaker A:Make them look really good, right?
Speaker A:Really get them into the feel of, oh, you know, you're gonna love shooting here.
Speaker A:I've seen Ashley do this a million times, and she's so incredible.
Speaker A:And they start to feel really good because it's not you pitching yourself to them, it's someone else, right?
Speaker A:Like the friend getting the photo shoot.
Speaker A:And no matter how we feel inside, we know that, you know, the client is already feeling good.
Speaker A:How do we maintain that?
Speaker A:I think it always puts me in a better mood when I see the client in a good mood.
Speaker A:I'm like, all right, things are going to be fine.
Speaker A:I can get out of my head, shut my phone off for three hours.
Speaker A:Nothing's going to happen.
Speaker A:I'm not that important anywhere that someone's going to be.
Speaker A:So let me just focus here, stay present.
Speaker A:And that's when the good stuff comes out.
Speaker A:But I still find sometimes when I'm in that little bit of a funk, right?
Speaker A:I can't, like, pull myself out of it immediately, that my creativity stalls and that then I start to panic.
Speaker A:Like, I've been doing this whatever, 13 years, 14 years, and I'm like, I don't know how to pose anybody.
Speaker A:I don't know where to put my plants.
Speaker A:I don't know how to do it.
Speaker A:What is this doing?
Speaker A:What is this thing in my hand?
Speaker A:Oh, it's a camera.
Speaker A:How do I use it, right?
Speaker A:Like, I feel like I start all over.
Speaker A:Do you ever have problems with your own creativity?
Speaker A:Or do you get to the point where you're saying, hey, I've been in this 15 years.
Speaker A:I know this stuff like the back of my hand.
Speaker A:Trust yourself and just do the work.
Speaker B:I'm more in the, like, tr.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker C:So I guess here's the thing I can do.
Speaker C:So two things.
Speaker C:I am not someone who has, like a shot list or a cookie cutter thing where I'm like, I start with this pose.
Speaker C:I go to this book.
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:I don't have.
Speaker C:I don't have a system like that at all.
Speaker C:That being said, I do have a lot of, like, go to.
Speaker C:It's not always the same one each time, but, like, just super easy go to.
Speaker C:Like, kind of mindless works every time setup.
Speaker C:And that's always how I start it.
Speaker C:There's like, probably like five or six to choose from, right?
Speaker C:And it depends on what they brought to wear and what kind of shoot it is and all that stuff.
Speaker C:So that's why I don't really.
Speaker C:And it's not like a clear system.
Speaker C:Because I have seen photographers who teach like system that I think would be.
Speaker B:Very oppressive to shoot under, which is like, we start here, we go here.
Speaker B:And, like, I can.
Speaker B:I cannot.
Speaker B:But God bless you if it works for you.
Speaker B:No judgment.
Speaker C:It's that for me, I have, like.
Speaker B:I think I'm autistic and HD adhd.
Speaker B:So, like, I feel like I do need a little bit of a system.
Speaker B:But I also, like, the minute you give me, like, rules and something to follow, I'm like, hell, no.
Speaker B:That's really boring.
Speaker B:So I would.
Speaker B:I would be, like, oppressed by having.
Speaker C:Like, a cookie cutter thing that everyone goes through.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But because I've been doing this for so long, I do feel like I don't ever have a, like, brain fart moment.
Speaker C:Like, I think I have a whole basic shoot that I could do for everyone with natural.
Speaker C:So also, natural light is 100.
Speaker C:My comfort zone.
Speaker C:My studio has amazing light.
Speaker C:If anyone has seen, like, my Stu Bryce studio tour, which is actually a different studio than I have now, but it's down the hall, so the light is the same.
Speaker C:Or my course, it's about shooting in a small studio that's in my current.
Speaker C:Current studio.
Speaker C:I do shoot with lights and strobes as well, but to me, that's a little more of, like, a mental lift.
Speaker B:So I don't start there.
Speaker C:If I'm having, like, a day or if I am going to start there, I'll start with, like, a one light setup or something that's again, super light lift, soft light, nothing.
Speaker C:Because I can shoot, like, this incredible, complex, like, four or five lights, like, like little tiny, you know, gobos and.
Speaker B:And like, hard lights and all kinds of things.
Speaker C:But that's not what I'm gonna do whenever.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Not right when I'm not mentally there for it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And then posing has always been the thing that came most naturally to me, I think, because of the acting and dancing background.
Speaker C:So I always feel like I just can't.
Speaker C:I usually end up, like, doing stuff myself and then be like, copy me basically.
Speaker C:And that's kind of how I get into my groove.
Speaker C:But what you're saying about the creativity.
Speaker C:So to me, that's all.
Speaker C:Like, I can sell all those shots and people will be blown away and happy with them, but they won't personally be incredibly, like, fulfilling and exciting to me.
Speaker C:So what I tend to do is save to the end of the shoot or to the point of the shoot when I'm able to fully be present.
Speaker C:That's to me, where the magic happens because you just see something and you go, what if?
Speaker C:And then you have.
Speaker C:It's just like this little moment of, like, universe, like, downloading creativity in your brain where you're like, what if.
Speaker B:Or I have this random thing, like this hat or some weird little.
Speaker C:I don't know, I buy a crazy.
Speaker C:As we all do probably, like studio prop pieces, and you don't know who's going to wear it.
Speaker C:And then all of a sudden, like, someone walks in your.
Speaker B:You're like, this might sound crazy.
Speaker C:And they're like, I don't know about this.
Speaker B:And then you do it.
Speaker C:And then they're like, whoa, that was so cool.
Speaker C:You know, so those are the.
Speaker C:To me, those are the magic moments of the job.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And those are harder to come by when you are struggling emotionally, I would say.
Speaker A:And again, I think we come back to expectations, right?
Speaker A:That if you're struggling emotionally, you go into a shoot like that, your expectation is that it's going to make you feel better.
Speaker A:That if you just do your job, the expectation is you're going to get some money from this.
Speaker A:But the second that you're able to relax and kind of let it go, you open the floodgates for all that, you know, universal intelligence, creativity flow, whatever you want to call it, to just kind of come down and you can trust yourself and build something new.
Speaker A:I know for me, not every shoot is a portfolio shoot.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I love all my clients, but you got to be honest, not all of them are going to be big portfolio pieces.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Some of them are just retail photography, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker A:I think my early on expectation was that every single shoot I did was going to be incredible art and just portfolio pieces coming out these.
Speaker A:Coming out the ass.
Speaker A:And I think with where I am now, I.
Speaker A:When I'm in the sales room with the client, are they happy with what they're seeing?
Speaker A:Do they feel like they got value out of what we did?
Speaker A:And if so, that makes it a success for me.
Speaker A:Not the amount of money they said they spend, not how many likes I'll get on Instagram for that picture.
Speaker A:Like, I have to remind myself why I'm doing this.
Speaker A:And I think there are times where photographers don't understand that it's not about them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:When they're in.
Speaker A:When they're in business, especially at the beginning.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you.
Speaker A:Do you think there's anything.
Speaker A:Because I want to start talking about your mentoring and all your classes and all the stuff that you do there, but this might be a good place to start.
Speaker A:Is there something that you wish photographers understood more about at the beginning of their journey?
Speaker A:Doesn't have to be technical, doesn't have to be esoteric.
Speaker A:What do you think they need to understand more?
Speaker C:I mean, one thing that's always hit me, and I remember when I learned this at the beginning, being, like, really upset, but it was like, one of the best things I had.
Speaker B:Fortunately, unfortunately, one of the best things.
Speaker C:I ever learned, which was like, like, the most talented photographers are not necessarily the ones who make it enabling being able to do this full time and make a living off of it.
Speaker C:And that's not to say that you shouldn't take your craft seriously or try to be like, the most talented and technically proficient that you can be.
Speaker C:But also, while you're trying to do that, and this is the hard part, you also have to learn how to run a business because there's.
Speaker C:Well, there's so many stories, right?
Speaker C:There are stories of people who came from the corporate world or the business world, and they actually have, like, a background in business.
Speaker C:But that's not my story.
Speaker C:I was an artist.
Speaker C:I was a performer, a filmmaker, and.
Speaker B:I was like, wait, what is business?
Speaker B:Do you know?
Speaker B:I really didn't.
Speaker B:Like, you have what is selling, what is networking, what is marketing.
Speaker B:You have to, like, convince people that this is worth it to them.
Speaker B:You have to figure out how to.
Speaker C:Talk about this in a way.
Speaker C:You have to put a number on it.
Speaker C:That number can't just be pulled out of your butt, but, like, has to be, like an actual number that accounts for all the bills and costs and time.
Speaker C:And because when I started, you better believe that if I got paid, I mean, I was really young too, so.
Speaker C:And this was a long time, long time ago.
Speaker C:But, you know, 15, 16, 17 years.
Speaker B:Ago, 500 bucks for a few hours work, which wasn't a few hours, but sounded like it because the job was.
Speaker C:Six hours or whatever, right?
Speaker C:Rich.
Speaker B:Like, you know, like what?
Speaker B:That was so crazy to me.
Speaker C:So I think, you know, when you're starting out, realizing that there's a balance that needs to happen for yourself between learning how to actually run the business in a way that it's a business.
Speaker C:And also I hate.
Speaker B:Tell me what you think about this.
Speaker C:Because I do hate this.
Speaker C:I still really rail against it.
Speaker C:But when people say it's just business to you as a photographer, it's just business.
Speaker B:Don't take it personal.
Speaker B:It's just business.
Speaker B:It's like, are you kidding me?
Speaker B:That's my Heart and soul.
Speaker B:That's who I am.
Speaker B:But at the same time, I do.
Speaker C:Have to appreciate the fact that like.
Speaker B:You do have to also see it.
Speaker C:As the fact that there is a product and business that is.
Speaker C:It is actually a separate entity than you.
Speaker C:Even though, again, my identity is wrapped in my business, I do feel like my business is me.
Speaker C:I super struggle with this.
Speaker C:But if you make a failure in your business, about this is a lesson I learned this year.
Speaker C:If you make a failure in your business, a failure of you on your character as a human being will kill you.
Speaker C:And that is like something that killed me this year and that I've had to work really hard out of and I had to have like, I'm super woo.
Speaker C:So like a healer had to basically tell me, like, you, you made this a failure of you as a character.
Speaker C:When it's just something that went wrong in your business and was like a.
Speaker C:Essentially, if you boil it down, a misinterpret or two different sides of a story, misinterpretation, misunderstanding, it doesn't mean that you, Ashley, as a human being living on this earth who has equal value to every other human being, is a moral failure.
Speaker C:Human failure.
Speaker C:But I made a business failure, my humanity failure, you know, and that, that's.
Speaker C:It's so.
Speaker C:And like again, for a year people told me it's just business and I'd.
Speaker B:Be like, no, it's not.
Speaker C:It's personal.
Speaker C:But you do have to walk that line of like it is, it is a business and it feels very personal.
Speaker C:And it, if you're the only one in your business, it is.
Speaker C:Does feel so very close to you.
Speaker C:And even if it's just a thread separating the two, you need a little bit of a line between you as a human being and because what if you.
Speaker C:I don't know, what if you get hurt in a way that you would never be able to photograph again?
Speaker C:Like, are you not you anymore?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:So it's like you really have to look at it as it is a business and you will exist.
Speaker C:And that goes back to the hobbies things.
Speaker C:It's like you need to exist outside your business.
Speaker A:And that's a, It's a big part.
Speaker A:Like I was just literally writing down identity, right?
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Because it's such a big part of what we, what we do when we are solo business owners.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:When I started, right, I did come from corporate, got a little bit of a business background.
Speaker A:Doesn't mean I'm good at this business, right.
Speaker A:I think I do okay.
Speaker A:But the same thing exists, right?
Speaker A:I am learning something new every day.
Speaker A:But when I was in corporate and I'm be making my PowerPoints or my TPS reports and my boss either liked it or didn't like it or said it was a terrible presentation or whatever it was, I never took it personally.
Speaker A:I was just kind of like, okay, whatever, like the project is what the project is.
Speaker A:But if someone turned around and been like, eh, these pictures.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're not that great.
Speaker A:Oh, in my heart, like, do you know I'm an artist?
Speaker A:Don't you know that?
Speaker A:These are.
Speaker A:These are gorgeous.
Speaker A:What, what opinion do you have?
Speaker A:You're a nobody, right?
Speaker A:And we get all wrapped around it because we do take it personally.
Speaker A:And I always think about my own business when I'm feeling like it is off the rails or it's not going the way that I want and I can't figure out how to get out of it.
Speaker A:I always wanted there to be like a photo studio rescue, like bar rescue, right?
Speaker A:Where someone can come in and just look at your business unbiased and be like, oh, yeah, you're screwing up here, here, here, here, and here.
Speaker A:It's not the product, it's how you're marketing it.
Speaker A:It's not the marketing, it's the.
Speaker A:The fact that you have water dripping from your ceiling.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Just someone that doesn't have the personal attachment to what you do so closely.
Speaker A:And I think that's where really good mentors come in.
Speaker A:Because you've got the experience from decades of doing this and you're able to filter through all of that experience and tell people, all right, I know where you're going.
Speaker A:I've been down the road you're traveling.
Speaker A:Here's your two paths.
Speaker A:It can go this way or it can go this way.
Speaker A:What's your choice?
Speaker A:And I've seen you do this with students where you bring a very practical approach to whatever it is.
Speaker A:Facebook ads, Google Ads, Instagram marketing, selling.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You've got a lot of these great courses, but you do it in a way that is very approachable for the students.
Speaker A:When you are building this sort of stuff and you're working with students, whether it's one on one or in a group, how personalized do you make it for that student?
Speaker A:Does it take a long time to understand where you're going with it?
Speaker A:Or do you say, listen, shut up.
Speaker A:Hold your questions for the end.
Speaker A:Let me get what I need to get out.
Speaker A:Like, how do you approach.
Speaker C:Nah.
Speaker A:Doing this, since everybody's business is so different.
Speaker C:Well, so I think that just depends on the format that I'm working with people.
Speaker C:So when it's one to one, it can be so customizable, which is like what I really like.
Speaker C:I really love that because I'm able to see a unique, you know, and it's, it's what other people have been able to do for me.
Speaker C:Especially like I, like I said in this year, like for someone to kind of be like the crow flying above everything and see the landscape and see it in a, the non personal way, to see your business as just business that you can't do for yourself and then be able to give you just some facts and, and then I really like this image of like a crow or a raven flying above because it's like they can also say like the.
Speaker C:I can see the path.
Speaker C:You are down on the ground.
Speaker C:So you can't see the path because you're going through it.
Speaker C:But like I'm up here and I can see the path.
Speaker C:And if you can do this with your pricing, this with your messaging that you know, and then we can weave all those things together, that's your path.
Speaker C:So that if I'm mentoring someone one to one, I'm able to be their personal crow flying above.
Speaker C:But obviously like if you are, if I'm trying to make something that appeals to quote unquote, the masses, which I love because that also allows me to help more people and like, let's be real, it's a different price point between the two.
Speaker C:And some people can't afford that per.
Speaker B:That personal crow to guide them.
Speaker B:So they need kind of like the video game crow that's on the assets for everyone.
Speaker C:I don't know why.
Speaker B:I just have like the image of.
Speaker C:Like a video game where there's like an overhead shot or something.
Speaker C:But like I've benefited again in my life from both.
Speaker C:Sue Brice would be like, you know, of course the mentor with a mainstream course since I found her on Creative Live, that that changed my trajectory, but that was made quote unquote for the masses.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Because I do think that there are these, I mean, look at how many things you and I have had so much similarity in.
Speaker C:Like, I do think that, you know, when you're a creative person, you're probably going to fall into these certain patterns and certain things.
Speaker C:And I can both work off like my own life experience and then what I've seen in one to one settings to create something that works for everybody.
Speaker C:But the thing is, when you do something for everybody, of course there's always going to be, but what about me feelings or this is my unique situation and I'm, you know, and that's where, like, mentoring comes in.
Speaker B:And I do feel like mentoring can.
Speaker C:Be really helpful when you've already been in it and been following, quote, unquote, the advice, but you're still having challenges and you're like, feeling like, I don't know, like, I'm following the advice, I'm doing all the right things.
Speaker C:And a lot of times I find out, like, like, yeah, you're doing some of the right things, but you're not doing all of it or doing it as effectively as you could.
Speaker C:Or this is the place where you're still hiding yourself.
Speaker C:You could be putting yourself out like this.
Speaker C:And I also think of, like, mentoring one on one as like a personal trainer.
Speaker C:Just like my voice coach is my voice coat or voice lessons or a personal trainer at the gym.
Speaker C:It's like, like you can exercise just knowing how to exercise, like intuitively.
Speaker C:You can watch YouTube videos for free.
Speaker C:You could do a group class which will give you the basics.
Speaker C:But, like, if you have no idea what's going on and you lift too heavy.
Speaker B:Ow, you hurt your back.
Speaker C:And then you can have the personal trainer who's like, oh, this is where your form's messed up.
Speaker C:You think you're doing that row, right, but you're not engaging your shoulder blades.
Speaker C:You know that that's the, that's the difference between all those levels of, I guess, support that you can get in your photography business.
Speaker C:And so I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker A:No, it, it does.
Speaker A:And you actually hit on something really, really important, which is regardless of where you are being a photographer or creative artist of any of any sort, there's levels of education, right, and access to information.
Speaker A:There's the YouTube, right?
Speaker A:And you can search and find that one weird niche video made by Gary in his basement.
Speaker A:And he has all the information that you need for that particular thing, right?
Speaker A:But most of the time you're going to find some video creators that are much higher level, right?
Speaker A:More generic in their content, perfectly fine.
Speaker A:Then you start to dig in and you find the creators that you really resonate with.
Speaker A:And now maybe you start to read their blog more or maybe you buy one of their more generic courses.
Speaker A:Then you realize, okay, I've done all that, now I'm still stuck.
Speaker A:I need to get to the mentoring, right?
Speaker A:So there's all this information that we have access to what I've seen, and I'm Curious if you've seen it, that people want to skip 1, 2 and 3 and go right to the one on one mentoring because they think that's going to be the easy button versus coming to a coach, a mentor trainer with specific things that they want to work on.
Speaker A:Would you, if a student came to you rather have like, help, my business is in crisis, or would you rather have someone say, I'd love you to help me with my Google Ads for boudoir?
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like something extraordinarily specific.
Speaker A:Which do you prefer?
Speaker C:I don't know if I have like a preference.
Speaker C:I do find value in both.
Speaker C:I do think like, so you can't invest in stuff too early, right?
Speaker C:Because if you don't.
Speaker C:I guess I always put it this way.
Speaker C:It's like, because I remember the first time I made a big investment in my business and how scary it was and.
Speaker C:But it did pay off.
Speaker C:But it paid off because I did the work.
Speaker C:Like, I want to be real about that too.
Speaker C:Like, no, I'm sure there are charlatans out there, but like, no coach can do the work for you.
Speaker C:Like, they can literally give you the path, the information, everything.
Speaker C:But if you sit on your hands and don't, don't do that, anything with it.
Speaker C:Like again, big, obviously Sue's a big influence in my life, but the first time I met her in person, I spent 2, $500 and then plus airfare, hotel, everything.
Speaker C:Well, it wasn't a hotel, was an Airbnb.
Speaker C:But regardless, to go to NYC to like a workshop.
Speaker C: Now at that time in my life,: Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But three months after that workshop, I had a studio.
Speaker C:I didn't have a studio when I went to.
Speaker C:This is a really long time ago.
Speaker C:Just to like put it in perspective, I had a studio.
Speaker C:I like, I got so much.
Speaker C:Like, I got.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:She showed me the path and I was like, that I can implement.
Speaker C:And so I went and I implemented it.
Speaker C:So for me, as a coach or as like a mentor, whatever you want to call it, I like to give people things that they can action and implement, but at the end of the day they have to action and implement it.
Speaker C:And I also like to give people, I don't know what the right word.
Speaker C:It's like maybe containers.
Speaker C:It's like, I don't want to give you 100% a system or a script, because the truth is what works for one person may not 100% exactly work for you, but I Think that in the, like the fences of it, like the outer containers of it, there is something there that can work for you.
Speaker C:But for example, if I gave you my words to use, then for you it might sound stilted and not like an energetic match when it comes out of your mouth, but the core message in it is probably the same, right?
Speaker C:So I like to give people things that they can customize, personalize, make work for them.
Speaker C:Because kind of like going back to that thing, I don't work well with the.
Speaker C:You start with your hands here, then you move your hands here.
Speaker C:So I also don't like to coach people that way.
Speaker C:I don't want to give them this like super linear.
Speaker C:It's linear, it's a path, it's a system, a blueprint, whatever.
Speaker C:But it's not so regiment, it's not like an army system, you know, it's not so regimented that it's like if you don't do this one thing first, it all crumbles and falls apart.
Speaker C:So I think going back to your initial question, ick, obviously if someone has a specific issue, then we can dive into that very specific issue.
Speaker C:I do think if someone is just struggling in business and they're not understanding why, it's also fun for me to.
Speaker C:Not fun, but like pull apart.
Speaker C:Like, well, what is going on here and what if, what is the mindset piece?
Speaker C:What is the actual logistical piece and the strategic piece and messaging piece and put that puzzle together and hopefully send people on a path where then they feel empower to implement.
Speaker C:Because also, I don't, like this sounds bad from a business perspective, but I don't want like a lifelong student either.
Speaker C:Like, I want people to be able to be empowered and move on and actually have success.
Speaker C:And like when I hear stories about people I previously coached, like, oh, now I'm doing this because of what you taught me.
Speaker C:Now I have the six figure business.
Speaker C:And even like I got an email from a client I mentored, I think two years ago and she wrote that like, like, yes, this year was harder than previous years, but she's still at a higher level this year, income wise than she was before she started working with me.
Speaker C:So even though this year has felt like a struggle, she's still at a much higher level than when she was when.
Speaker C:And so to me that's like, that's a win because I haven't worked with her in two years.
Speaker C:But she said, and she related it back to like what she got out of working with me.
Speaker C:So for me, I don't know that, like, and then this goes back to the other thing is like, I never want someone to make an investment that's going to stress them out.
Speaker C:Where it's like, I can't pay my bills now because that's, I just don't think that's a good thing in any business.
Speaker C:I say that with ads all the time.
Speaker C:Like, if you don't have money set aside for ads, it's not gambling, but at the same time, you may lose that money and not get the result you want the first try.
Speaker C:So you need to know that that's money that you're okay with spending, seeing what happens, looking at the results, tweaking it and spending more money.
Speaker C:And if you're, if you need to like literally feed yourself, then please don't run ads.
Speaker B:Like, do you know what I mean?
Speaker C:And so I, the same thing with business.
Speaker C:Like, I don't want someone to come to me where it's like, it's you or my rent.
Speaker C:Like, please pay your rent.
Speaker B:Like, I don't want to, I don't.
Speaker C:Want to have that pressure on my shoulders.
Speaker C:But when you're at a place where you're like, I've set aside some money where I, I do, I am like in a profit mode and I have other streams of income and I really want to get this together and I really want to up level and I'm really stuck.
Speaker C:And it could be a big stuck or a specific stuck.
Speaker C:That's where I want to help people.
Speaker A:God, there's so much there.
Speaker A:I'm going to talk to you for four hours today.
Speaker A:I just so, but there's, there's a lot in there because, yeah, a bad investment is a bad investment, right?
Speaker A:And only you can really dictate whether or not it was a good or a bad investment for you.
Speaker A:But I love what you're saying about if you can't afford it, don't do it right now.
Speaker A:Find alternative methods to get what you need.
Speaker A:There's always methods out there.
Speaker A:If you can't necessarily afford $2,500 or even, you know, I run Google Ads and I'm at like a $10 a day budget, right?
Speaker A:300 bucks a month.
Speaker A:Month is what I'm willing to spend on it.
Speaker A:Could I spend more?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Can I spend less?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But I'm also okay saying, you know what?
Speaker A:I had to get a new exhaust on my car.
Speaker A:I'm pausing these for the next two months just to save myself that money instead of being like, well, if I stop the Google Ads, no One will come in like, no, it might give you a fresh approach to doing something the next time, but wasted money is wasted money and no one loves that feeling.
Speaker A:And I think one place that I've been not taken advantage of because I don't like to say that, because I don't think most coaches or people selling products are malicious in any way.
Speaker A:But there's a fine line between authentic, helpful and manipulative.
Speaker A:And I've seen you in your discussions about marketing, especially around the ad space, you're very upfront and very honest with what's going to work or not work or, yeah, you may lose some money, but this whole thing is gambling and it's testing and it's refining and it's working the process.
Speaker A:Where do you find the difference between that authenticity and manipulation?
Speaker A:When you're looking at the landscape and seeing how people teach marketing or teach selling, is there anything in there that you look at?
Speaker A:You're like, I wish people wouldn't tell potential customers that or go about it that way.
Speaker A:Do you see anything like that out there?
Speaker C:I don't see it as much in this photography space.
Speaker C:I have seen it in other spaces.
Speaker C:I feel like I.
Speaker C:Not again, not been victim to it, but I feel like I've been.
Speaker C:I was pursuing like a tangential business, I guess you could say.
Speaker C:And I do feel like I was led astray by some coaches.
Speaker C:And I also feel like some people have used me as a star student when they shouldn't.
Speaker C:But I signed off on it originally, so, like, I can't really do anything about it.
Speaker C:So I do see in just the coaching industry at large, manipulation.
Speaker C:And I don't know how you tell the difference because, like, again, I don't want to say the only way is like to live and learn.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And to use your spy, I guess, to use your spidey sense and stuff like that.
Speaker C:Part of where I think I went wrong in the poor experiences I had was wanting to be seen and special in a new space and wanting to be chosen and wanting to be the star student and wanting to be the success story and almost wanting that so bad that I didn't see the red flags around me or I saw the red flags and decided to drive right past.
Speaker B:They were waving me through.
Speaker B:I guess that.
Speaker C:And that's like, on me.
Speaker C:Like, that's the thing.
Speaker C:It's on you, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I guess I would say to people, if you have a red flag, you don't need to, like, like, I don't know, start shit about something.
Speaker C:I mean, Whatever, do what you want.
Speaker C:But, like, I'm, I'm not necessarily, like, someone who feels like everyone needs to be called out all the time.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And another thing I don't love, if.
Speaker B:I'm going to be honest, is when.
Speaker C:Someone tells you that they have the answer.
Speaker C:And maybe in my career, like, because it is such a marketing message, I don't know, maybe I run ads or something that was like, oh, Facebook ads.
Speaker B:I tried never to say there that.
Speaker C:They'Re, they're the answer because I don't believe that they are the one and only answer, but I do feel like it is.
Speaker C:And I really try to never say stuff like this, like the secret sauce or the, the answer.
Speaker C:The one way, the.
Speaker C:This is the solution.
Speaker C:It's a solution.
Speaker C:A solution to this problem could be Google Ads.
Speaker C:If you don't have time to network and, you know, your website converts really well and you want to get in front of people who are at their computer literally searching for a photographer right now, Google Ads could be a really great solution for you.
Speaker C:It's not the only solution for you.
Speaker C:So I guess maybe to me, that can't.
Speaker C:I, I, I struggle with it because I know that, like, I mean, sometimes, like these days, I use chat GBT to write something and maybe I don't, like, vet it the way I should.
Speaker C:Or you hire an.
Speaker C:I don't hire an ads agency.
Speaker C:I do my own ad speech.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:Like, someone might hire an ads agency and they might wr.
Speaker C:And you maybe didn't mean it that way.
Speaker C:So I try not to, like, I don't want to, like, put anything on, like, a person or have it be.
Speaker B:That, like, I get called out because someone thinks I'm referring to a specific person.
Speaker C:Because I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm just saying, like, that phrase, those phrases, the solution, the answer, the secret sauce, the one way to do this thing is going to be the thing that saves you is a little disingenuous to me.
Speaker A:I, I agree.
Speaker A:And you know, I've never been someone that believes in absolutes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's way too many variables out there.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:There's no one way to do anything.
Speaker A:And I love the fact that you're referring to that, that people really do need to customize everything for themselves.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's another thing that sue said was, you know, make this business yours.
Speaker A:What I do, you can't do, and what you do, I can't do.
Speaker A:So make it your own business and just kind of build it the way that you want.
Speaker A:I Think people lose sight of that because they want, they see people having success and they want what they have.
Speaker A:So let me do exactly what they did.
Speaker A:But those absolutes, while they're a good hook for an ad, I've got the secret ingredient for you to, you know, have Google Ad success.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:But that's one of a million secrets out there.
Speaker A:So you don't have the only one.
Speaker A:But I get you're trying to sell a product and it's a good hook, right?
Speaker A:You in general.
Speaker A:I'm not pointing at you.
Speaker B:No, I was saying it's like, have I done this?
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker B:But I do when I see it.
Speaker C:Now in ads, it does red flag for me I guess is what or not even ads, like posts, whatever, because of some of the things that I've been through, does sometimes red flag for me because again, I really do try to be pretty trans, I think pretty transparent and upfront that like all the things I teach, they worked for me.
Speaker C:I've seen them work for other people.
Speaker C:They do work.
Speaker C:You may have to work them to get them to work.
Speaker C:It may not be a magical wave your wand overnight.
Speaker C:You may spend some money in the process, it may be more money than you wanted to spend in the process.
Speaker C:And I don't only teach ads.
Speaker C:That's the other thing I mean, I always want to tell people is like, for example, I have like on my website, a totally free on demand video class that anyone can take.
Speaker C:And it's not about ads at all.
Speaker C:It's about just honest hitting the pavement work of marketing yourself and really relationship building and networking, which always is the number one way to build your business, in my opinion.
Speaker C:And it's just that sometimes you get to a place where you're shooting a lot.
Speaker C:If you're already an introverted person, you already have a baseline success rate in your business, you maybe can't energetically keep up with this once a week BNI meeting.
Speaker C:And so you're looking to phase that out, but what can you phase in?
Speaker C:And I think that's where ads come into a great place and that's where they helped me in my business.
Speaker C:But it's not the way to get your, in my opinion, it's not the way to get your business started or to keep clients or it's a, it's one strategy in a big toolbox.
Speaker C:And so I don't even just teach.
Speaker C:I mean people have known me to teach ads because there are very few people who teach it.
Speaker C:But it's not the only thing I teach, and when I mentor people, we usually don't even spend that much time on ads because we usually find they have all these other things that they need help with, like sales, conversations in the sales room, the initial consultation, pricing, marketing, relationship building, going to network, how to successfully network with people, all these other things.
Speaker C:So, yeah, But I do find that when I see just in the coaching space in general, someone just very authoritatively saying that they have the golden goose.
Speaker B:It'S like, do you?
Speaker C:Because that's the other thing is, I would also say that there's no new information under the sun.
Speaker C:Like, to be honest, everything that I teach, obviously, I learned from someone else.
Speaker C:In some cases, a lot of it from sue, but also from, like, other people as well.
Speaker C:I worked with a coach a couple years ago, and she's not a photography coach, but she taught sales.
Speaker C:But it was like, literally, I didn't.
Speaker C:I knew all that.
Speaker C:And it's no shade on her.
Speaker C:It's just like, oh, actually, I forgot that I knew this.
Speaker C:But I know all of this and I learned it from sue, and I learned it from.
Speaker C:Also, Sarah Petty is a great photography coach who was like, before I met sue, someone who coached me.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:I really don't think that there's anything new under the sun.
Speaker C:But what there is is sometimes someone has a message and says it in a way that you heard it from other people, and for whatever reason, it didn't noodle into your brain, right.
Speaker C:And someone speaks directly to your brain and your soul and your heart, and you all of a sudden can take action and implement it.
Speaker C:And I don't know what that is or why that is.
Speaker C:And I might not be that for people, but like, for.
Speaker C:For some.
Speaker C:Some people tell me that's the case with me.
Speaker C:They heard it before, but for whatever reason, the way I explained it made sense to them.
Speaker C:And so I do think that that's the value of having so many educators out there, because it really, like, if you.
Speaker C:Even if you go to, like, a conference like WPPI or whatever, there are going to be so many classes, and I'm sure if you sat in all of them, you'd find a lot of overlap in the information.
Speaker C:Because, again, there's nothing new under the sun.
Speaker C:And it's just that some, like, Felix explains lighting so differently than Lindsay Adler, and they're both great.
Speaker C:And for some people, Felix is the person to learn from.
Speaker C:And for some people, Lindsay Adler is the person to learn from.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:I do, I do, totally.
Speaker A:And, you know, I've been someone that's been out there saying, you know, the coaching space, the mentoring space is saturated.
Speaker A:And then I think about it and I go, no, it's not saturated.
Speaker A:Everybody can benefit from a different voice.
Speaker A:And the ones that have something that resonates with people will stick around.
Speaker A:The ones that don't will fall away.
Speaker A:And so you have, at the end of the day, educators that are bringing something good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Even though it might be lighting or posing or, you know, all the basic fundamentals.
Speaker A:There's so many different experiences out there.
Speaker A:There's ways that you can learn.
Speaker A:You can find the coaches that resonate with you and just never lose sight of the fact that there's more than one way to do anything.
Speaker A:And you really have to personalize it to yourself.
Speaker A:Because all the good coaches that I know would never say, you have to do it this way.
Speaker A:They'll say, hey, here's what worked for me.
Speaker A:But totally different.
Speaker A:Santa Barbara is totally different than Portland, Maine.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So everything that you say, I might be able to get it and adapt it, but if I try to run the same type of ads that you run in Santa Barbara here in Maine, they may or may not work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's just kind of what you have to keep in the back of your mind.
Speaker A:I know for me, with coaching specifically, and I'm going to move on after this.
Speaker A:With coaching specifically, when I see something and I almost get drawn in, I'm like, ooh, this looks really good.
Speaker A:I have to buy this class.
Speaker A:I have to get this.
Speaker C:This.
Speaker A:I sit for like, two weeks and I go, it's still going to be there, right?
Speaker A:And I will take the idiot tax and miss the sale.
Speaker A:But I just need to make sure that I really need this.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Have I taken this before?
Speaker A:Do I have another class of this somewhere else that I haven't even watched yet?
Speaker A:You know, wow.
Speaker A:So I, you know, more power to you on that because I. I know that you create a lot of these digital products.
Speaker A:They do well for you, and you're a trusted voice in that space.
Speaker A:So with that comes responsibility.
Speaker A:Now, in the space of marketing, nothing in particular.
Speaker A:Not ads, not social, but just marketing in general.
Speaker A:How has your marketing changed over, let's say, the past five or seven years?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, it's funny you say that, because I actually just redid my website two months ago.
Speaker A:I've been looking at it.
Speaker A:It's beautiful.
Speaker C:Oh, thank you.
Speaker C:It's funny because, like, I. I tend to have, like, if it's.
Speaker B:If I don't fix IT policy, you know, especially when.
Speaker C:Because I do think, like, stuff like.
Speaker C:Like, again, not to talk about sue, but, like, she used to say, like, don't redo your logo, like, 80 times.
Speaker C:That's like a procrastination tool.
Speaker C:And I do think photographers do that with their website or whatever.
Speaker C: redid my website was actually: Speaker C:And I did realize after this challenging year that I've been through that I'm a totally different person.
Speaker B:I mean, not a totally different person.
Speaker C:Obviously, I'm the same person, but really, like, when I looked at the way that I was messaging on my old website, it just didn't resonate with me anymore.
Speaker C:And I think part of the thing that my new website tries to communicate.
Speaker C:And my best friend, who's an artist, like, I showed it to her.
Speaker C:I was like.
Speaker C:I just like, what do you see out of this?
Speaker C:And she told me.
Speaker B:I was like, that's what I was going for.
Speaker B:So, you know, without telling her, like.
Speaker C:What I was trying to go.
Speaker C:I think five years ago, I was trying to prove it.
Speaker C:I was trying to prove that it was worth it to invest in photos, that they could trust me, that I was a fairy magician.
Speaker C:Look at the before and afters.
Speaker C:Like, it's gonna be this magical thing.
Speaker C:And now I'm like, more like, I'm freaking good.
Speaker B:Look at these pictures.
Speaker C:They're great.
Speaker C:I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm not starting with a low sitting fee anymore.
Speaker C:I like.
Speaker C:And again, I can't even tell you.
Speaker B:How this is going to work because.
Speaker C:It'S two months new.
Speaker C:But, I mean, you said that you.
Speaker B:Like my website working.
Speaker C:And then I really honed in on this word sovereignty because in my marketing and messaging.
Speaker C:Because what I really realized again, after a year that I've been through is like.
Speaker C:Like, I want my clients to think of themselves as sovereign.
Speaker C:Like, I.
Speaker C:When I think of my worst experiences in my business, and not just this year, but, like, going way back, it's.
Speaker C:Whenever someone wanted me to fix them and I.
Speaker C:When someone wants me to fix them.
Speaker C:And I guess this would apply to coaching, too, but I've not had any bad experiences coaching people, but in my photography business, but, like, coaching other photographers.
Speaker C:Yeah, I want to fix.
Speaker B:Like, I think I've always been that.
Speaker C:Person that wants to, like, fix and help and rescue.
Speaker C:Like, I have that, like, little savior complex me, unfortunately.
Speaker C:So if someone wants me to fix them, like, I really want to go in and fix them and make them feel so good.
Speaker C:But then when their mental issues are what's preventing them from being fixed and I can't do anything about it.
Speaker C:And now we're sitting here and they're like.
Speaker C:And obviously this hasn't happened a ton, but the times it's happened are painful.
Speaker C:And I remember them like they were.
Speaker B:A million times over.
Speaker C:I don't feel transformed.
Speaker C:I don't feel like.
Speaker C:I still feel like I don't look good in this photo.
Speaker B:I still have body image issues, whatever.
Speaker C:I take it real personally.
Speaker C:And that goes back to like, it's just business versus the failure on my part.
Speaker C:But then I realized too, like, there is this little bit in the before and afters and all this stuff in my marketing that's kind of saying, you come to the studio and you will be transformed.
Speaker C:And what I really want to say is like, like I'm providing again the fences, the barriers, the container of a transformation.
Speaker C:We're going to follow these steps.
Speaker C:Nine times out of 10, maybe 9.9.
Speaker C:Nine times out of 10, people do walk away reporting that they feel more confident, more beautiful.
Speaker C:But also that's on them because they also allowed themselves to see themselves as beautiful, to recognize their beauty, to feel transformed.
Speaker C:They sovereign.
Speaker C:I didn't do anything.
Speaker C:I just held up a mirror and reflected it back to them and they took that and ran with it.
Speaker C:I didn't fix them.
Speaker C:And that's more the energy that I'm trying to come from now is like, look, my photos are freaking great.
Speaker C:You cannot tell me that my photos aren't great.
Speaker C:They're great.
Speaker C:I have done photo shoots sick.
Speaker C:I have done photo shoots in Covid with a mask on where the.
Speaker C:The viewfinder was blurry for because it was fogged up from my breathing.
Speaker C:I have done photo shoot.
Speaker C:You know, like, I feel truly like I could have be a little bit.
Speaker B:Blind and I could still take a good photo at this point because I.
Speaker C:Just have that technical mastery at this point.
Speaker C:So it's not the photo quality.
Speaker C:And I'm giving my all.
Speaker C:Even when I feel shitty, I am giving my all.
Speaker C:And the other thing is that photo shoots are emotional labor.
Speaker C:And like, that's something I wish the general public would understand is like, I think people, because everyone has an iPhone, just sees it as like, clicking.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you know it's not clicking, and I know it's not clicking.
Speaker C:And all the photographers out there know it's not clicking, but it's really hard to, like, name it or put a value on that.
Speaker C:But like, me having to listen to you complain about your body and all.
Speaker B:That, coach you through it, Bring all.
Speaker C:My energy out so that you get energy like, like think about the best angles, all this stuff.
Speaker C:Think about the light, think about the expression, Think about it all.
Speaker C:And press the shutter at the exact right moment.
Speaker C:Then edit the photos and all that.
Speaker C:That's like, it's a lot.
Speaker C:And I don't mean to someone like earlier this year kind of said like.
Speaker B:Oh, poor you, you get to be an artist or something.
Speaker B:Like it's not that hard.
Speaker C:And it's like it's not.
Speaker C:And I am grateful.
Speaker C:Like, thank God I'm not a boring job.
Speaker C:You know, like, it could be, it.
Speaker B:Could be a lot worse.
Speaker C:I get it in the job scheme.
Speaker C:It could be a lot worse.
Speaker C:And like, I'm so blessed and I'm so lucky and it's still a different kind of hard.
Speaker C:And I wish people would appreciate that.
Speaker B:A little bit that there's like that.
Speaker C:Someone creating art for you of you.
Speaker C:It doesn't cost the artist, but it does.
Speaker C:And like this little.
Speaker C:There is an energy exchange and that's why we get them.
Speaker C:Like, oh.
Speaker C:And so I'm just like, you know what, I can set you up on a 10 month payment plan, but you're gonna have to commit to $2,500 because I'm not doing scoots for 500 or 750 sitting fee.
Speaker C:And then you walk away with like one image.
Speaker C:And then like I just spent 16 hours from start to finish with you.
Speaker C:14 hours.
Speaker C:And like we.
Speaker C:What are we doing here?
Speaker B:Like, I'm way too tight.
Speaker A:Resentment and anger and you know, like your time was wasted.
Speaker A:And a lot of that is our own, is our own ego.
Speaker A:But I feel you a thousand percent.
Speaker A:I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker A:And you know, the, the funny thing is that that pressing, just pressing the button is like 1, 1% of as a photographer.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If it's that easy, then here, take my camera.
Speaker A:Like you do it.
Speaker A:But no, I don't think, I don't think we're responsible for people's emotions.
Speaker A:I think, think we're responsible for providing the safest, most enjoyable experience that we can in our studio.
Speaker A:But if you walk in and you're concerned about your dog or your marriage might be falling apart, or you have a teenager that's just being a teenager and your mind isn't there as a photographer, as an artist, as someone that's trying to give you a service and a product, I would.
Speaker A:That involves you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's not like going to a plumber.
Speaker A:But if it involves you and you're not willing to participate a hundred percent for a short period of time, I would rather reschedule until you're in a place where your mind is good, because you bringing that energy in, I don't care if it drains me, but your entire view of the experience is going to be a little bit different.
Speaker A:So I love this.
Speaker A:This idea of sovereignty and the importance of understanding that we can't fix clients.
Speaker A:We can help.
Speaker A:We can pull from our experience and maybe have some insight.
Speaker A:But we're not counselors.
Speaker A:We're not therapists.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We're not life coaches in that moment.
Speaker A:We are photographers.
Speaker A:So I think those of us that do provide a much higher level of service bump into this a little bit more, and it's okay.
Speaker A:I appreciate the fact that my clients come to me in the way that they do.
Speaker A:But, you know, you talked a little bit about transformation, and that word kind of clicked in my mind.
Speaker A:Because it sounds like you're not alone in this year being transformative for a ton of different reasons.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:No, I think we've all really taken a step back and looked at how are we living life, how are we choosing to go through every single day?
Speaker A:And if we need something to change and we're not changing, we're not transforming, we're resistant to it, then why are we expecting anything to change?
Speaker A:In this period of transformation that you're going through, through.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Your website, thinking about, you know, doing things differently in your mentoring, different ways that you photograph people, this period of transformation you go through, where do you hit resistance to that transformation for yourself?
Speaker C:Yeah, Well, I think.
Speaker C:I don't know if resistance is the right word or, like, just so crushing Dark.
Speaker A:There's a gun there she is.
Speaker B:Like, I guess for me, it's.
Speaker C:There's just been very.
Speaker C:A lot of days where it's like.
Speaker B:How much more can I do?
Speaker B:How much more inner work can I do?
Speaker C:How much more hope?
Speaker C:Like, how can I have hope and optimism when everything feels so hard?
Speaker C:So I guess that's my own little.
Speaker C:Like, that's the Eeyore in us, right?
Speaker C:Like, that's my own little resistance is more like.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I guess it is resistance of, like, being resistant to the transformation.
Speaker C:Because it's like.
Speaker C:Like, you'll watch so many motivational podcasts or.
Speaker C:I recently started.
Speaker C:I didn't know this was a podcast, and somehow it came up, and then I was like, how did I not.
Speaker B:Know this was a thing for the.
Speaker C:Last however many months.
Speaker C:But, like, Michelle Obama and her brother have a podcast, and it's so great.
Speaker B:It's, you know, and they must have.
Speaker C:Like, actors and public figures or whatever, but they give such good, like, advice, and they really give a lot of like.
Speaker C:Like talking about.
Speaker B:Obviously, everyone goes through hard stuff in their life.
Speaker C:Some of it is so hard, it feels like it's gonna break you.
Speaker C:That's okay.
Speaker C:And that's literally part of being a human.
Speaker C:And that there's, like, keep.
Speaker B:You know, I think when.
Speaker B:When I think of the Obamas.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:You think of that hope poster.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I think that they are such, like, a.
Speaker C:A force of, like, hope, optimism, and that the podcast kind of has that, like, keeping your.
Speaker C:Keep it again, going back to the chrome analogy.
Speaker C:Be able to get yourself up enough to see that what you're in right now is not forever.
Speaker C:It feels like it's forever.
Speaker C:It feels a hundred percent like it's forever.
Speaker C:And maybe it will be longer than you want it to be, you know, but you can and will as long as you are a resilient person, which I hope everyone has the strength.
Speaker C:Strength to be.
Speaker C:Come out of this.
Speaker C:And when you come out of it, the other side, that is the transformation.
Speaker B:The transformation isn't the I went to Paris and found myself.
Speaker B:I mean, it's what we want it to be, but it's.
Speaker B:And maybe it is, but it's not like I ate six croissants a day.
Speaker B:I mean, I want that to be the transformation, but that really, the things that transform us are more like the.
Speaker C:Things that were so hard we didn't know if we'd get through them.
Speaker C:And so the resistance has just been to the.
Speaker C:I guess the optimism of seeing that and.
Speaker C:And fighting every day to see and talking to friends and talking to just different people again.
Speaker C:Like, this year, the coaches that I've hired have been more in the, like, spiritual space, I guess, because I really needed that more.
Speaker C:I didn't need the business know how because I know how to run my business, and I was making money.
Speaker C:But what I needed was my soul to heal and.
Speaker C:And then thinking about, like, the hobbies I've invested in and stuff.
Speaker C:And so to me, what it's been this year was, I guess the resistance was investing in myself to do those things that would heal my soul and then do the hard.
Speaker C:Do the hard work in the sense that it's like, do.
Speaker C:Sometimes doing the things that bring you joy is hard work.
Speaker C:Or practicing the singing exercises.
Speaker C:It's like 20 minutes out of the day.
Speaker C:Like, running scales isn't.
Speaker C:Doesn't sound that fun.
Speaker C:But then when you start doing it, you're like, oh, this is pretty fun.
Speaker B:Like, I do like doing this or.
Speaker C:Driving to the dance class and trying to find parking.
Speaker C:Isn't that fun.
Speaker C:But being at the dance class is fun or those things.
Speaker C:So I think, like, for me, that's been.
Speaker C:The challenge is like, don't let the darkness take over your soul as what.
Speaker B:Wants to happen for me, don't let Eeyore win.
Speaker B:Eeyore's wonderful.
Speaker B:And you're allowed to beat sometimes.
Speaker B:But, like, you also have to be Winnie the Pooh sometimes.
Speaker A:You know, I agree with that a thousand percent.
Speaker A:You could not have said it better.
Speaker A:I think just the fact that you are getting up every day and doing something, that is the transformation, that is the work that is the hardest part of any of it.
Speaker A:Because it's easy to sit back and feel bad for yourself.
Speaker A:It's easy to sit back and just wish for something else.
Speaker A:Everything in between is the hard work.
Speaker A:And you, the act of you getting up every day is you defeating that resistance because you could just as easily let it hit you and you just stay in bed and curl up all day, which I've done I don't even know how many times this year.
Speaker A:And I'm just like, nope, today's not the day that I'm getting out of bed.
Speaker A:Bed.
Speaker A:Then I think, like, well, that's not getting me any closer to what I want.
Speaker A:So I love the fact that you get up and you do it anyway and you're leaning into the hobbies.
Speaker A:There's got to be something in there, in your process, right, that is sacred to you.
Speaker A:We've talked a little bit about your morning ritual and setting intentions and whatnot.
Speaker A:Do you have a non negotiable, a no compromise?
Speaker A:No matter what happens, I am not changing this part of me, my life, my business.
Speaker C:That's like such a good and hard question, but I feel like I don't.
Speaker C:I wouldn't say, because I'm a very stubborn person.
Speaker C:Please ask my parents.
Speaker B:And my son is also incredibly stubborn.
Speaker B:So it's like the wonderful thing about creating a clone of yourself is you get to see all the ways you are a difficult human being reflected back to you.
Speaker B:How do people like me.
Speaker C:Like, I.
Speaker B:I'm as a difficult Jesus.
Speaker B:So I'm very like, I am not necessarily known for being a great compromise.
Speaker C:Or being like, I am very stubborn, but I also feel like as I've gotten older, I've tried to learn how to be more like open minded.
Speaker C:And as an actor I feel like I do have this habit of always trying to see all the angles and the perspectives on thing which someone actually.
Speaker B:Like lovingly called me in again.
Speaker C:One of these healer people this year was like you don't have to defend other people for treating you shitty.
Speaker C:Like you don't have to see it from their side.
Speaker C:You're always like saying well but they.
Speaker B:Would say and she's like no, they don't say.
Speaker B:Like you get to just have your opinion about it and not have to.
Speaker C:See it from all angles.
Speaker C:So I guess like as an a non negotiable I think for me it's just my integrity.
Speaker C:Like my soul.
Speaker C:Like is this in integrity with me?
Speaker C:Like I don't want to, I don't want to do the thing just because it's going to make me the most money or I don't want to do the thing just because that would be the quick way.
Speaker C:Quick get rich.
Speaker C:There is no get rich quick.
Speaker B:But you know what I mean Like.
Speaker C:I do, like I don't want to sell the course that I don't believe in or I don't, you know what I mean?
Speaker C:Like I don't, I don't, I really just want to be in integrity with everything I do because at the end of the day when my hit my head hits the pillow I want to feel like I can sleep with myself.
Speaker B:Like you know I've always just been.
Speaker C:A very justice oriented person and a very like again I think like I.
Speaker B:Think I'm an empathetic person and I.
Speaker C:Think that I'm a heart centered person and, and I just don't want to ever feel like I sold my soul for something.
Speaker C:And so to me that's like.
Speaker C:And again not that I've been presented.
Speaker B:With like a lot of opportunities to sell my soul but you know like I just feel like I just really.
Speaker C:For example I'll tell you like something.
Speaker C:There was once a local politician whose platform or whatever is not what I agreed with but they wanted to hire me for photos that would have been lucrative.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:You could, there's the person that could say it's just a business, it's a job, is a job, is a job.
Speaker C:But to me in the political and this was semi recently climate of this country and things that I at my core do not believe in, that this person believed in, I just couldn't take the photos.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:You know, sure.
Speaker C:So and I again People may agree or not agree with that, but that's kind of what I mean with, like, I. I have a sense of who I am and what my integrity is, and at my core is.
Speaker C:And that is important to me to never feel like I exchanged money for something that was, at my core, who I am.
Speaker A:I love that I actually written down at the top of my little prep sheet here, emotional resilience and creative integrity.
Speaker A:And you nailed the creative integrity part.
Speaker A:I think that's really one of the only things that we have right when we are walking this fine path between art and business.
Speaker A:You know, art has always been the great way to resist, to talk about politics, to challenge the system, to raise people up, to tear them down.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Art has its place.
Speaker A:Very few artists often, you know, stray from that.
Speaker A:But when we start introducing business now, you start thinking like, well, I can put my morals aside and do this job, or I can, you know, well, it's good money and who's going to know, right.
Speaker A:I don't have to promote this at all.
Speaker A:And I think when you start to compromise your own integrity and your own beliefs that way, that you come out of it with that kind of gross feeling.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you start to question yourself, like, why did I do that Right now that doesn't happen all the time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Some people can deal with it.
Speaker A:I wish I was a sociopath and could just be like, yeah, I don't care.
Speaker A:Like, whatever.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I don't have it.
Speaker A:I'm built.
Speaker A:I'm built like you are.
Speaker A:Insofar as, like, if it doesn't.
Speaker A:Doesn't fit with what I want to do, you.
Speaker A:I just say I'm not the right fit.
Speaker A:I don't make a big stink of it.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, fit for you.
Speaker A:But let me refer you to some other people that I think are going to do an amazing job.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's a very easy way to get out of anything, so.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker A:I. I love.
Speaker A:I love how you've talked about this angle of integrity because it's not brought up enough.
Speaker A:I think we're so taught to succeed, succeed, succeed that.
Speaker A:That we forget about what does success mean to us.
Speaker A:Not to the coach, not to the business icon.
Speaker A:What does success mean to us?
Speaker A:And sometimes that's just following, you know, your heart, space in it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:As I try to start to land this plane, we've talked about coaching.
Speaker A:We've talked about coaching.
Speaker A:I'm going to lighten it up with a question that probably sounds pretty dark.
Speaker A:But this will play to your whole Wednesday.
Speaker A:So if your hard drive crashed tomorrow, you lost your entire archive, every picture you've ever taken.
Speaker A:What's the first one that you would recreate?
Speaker C:Oh, I don't think I'd recreate any of them.
Speaker C:No, no, I don't think so.
Speaker C:Because I think I would want to create something.
Speaker C:I'm always trying to create something new for myself.
Speaker C:That's not to say that the themes wouldn't be the same because like, like when I do creative work, like anyone who's followed like the creative work that I've done for like awards or competitions and things which never were done to get awards, they were just done because that's like what I felt creative about.
Speaker C:And then like a beautiful, unexpected byproduct was winning awards.
Speaker C:But they're always like kind of showgirl or edgy or like, they're the freak side of me.
Speaker B:They're like, I know that ones are super sexy.
Speaker B:They're not shot like.
Speaker B:I think probably, probably people are like, what?
Speaker B:They're the Rocky Horror side of me.
Speaker C:So that's not to say like the work wouldn't be on those themes.
Speaker A:I know what you're saying.
Speaker C:But I wouldn't want to like get that model back for that exact shot and then recreate that shot because I just feel like that's been done.
Speaker C:And I don't mean like, oh, that's been done, because I'm not even saying that.
Speaker C:Like, I mean, I like to think that my creative work is original, but like, surely there are other photographers that do work like that and thought and people in fashion and things like that.
Speaker C:But I guess what I just mean is for me, I explored that particular look, theme thing, whatever was interesting to me about that particular thing.
Speaker C:And I would just, I'd want to put a new spin on it at the very least, you know.
Speaker C:Now again, like, when I'm doing work like that, it's like when there's one dancer model I love to work with.
Speaker C:And one thing that's cool about her is she can wear like 10 inch pole heel, you know, pole dancer heels, pleaser shoes.
Speaker C:And not everyone can do that.
Speaker C:But there's also very limited ways you can pose someone in them where they're like, where it's like not foreshortening.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker C:Like, and they balance.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:So for example, when I work with her, sometimes I'm like, dang, we're doing that pose again.
Speaker B:But I'm.
Speaker C:Then I'm like, then it's a Challenge like, well, how can I make this image so different than the previous one that it's not like, oh, she's doing the same pose.
Speaker C:She's pulling out from her own bag of tricks kind of thing.
Speaker C:So I guess it's that, like, referential piece without it's referencing past work and past things in the culture that I like, such as pole dancing, stripping, burlesque.
Speaker B:Link, text, school year, like, all this weird shit.
Speaker C:And then put.
Speaker B:And feathers and Vegas showgirls and stuff.
Speaker C:And then putting it into, like, my own context and spin on a new time.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:It's just so funny that you go about and say that, because I'm like, oh, no, I associate all those things with you all the time.
Speaker A:But when I was looking for your.
Speaker A:Your new, beautifully redesigned website.
Speaker A:Yeah, I went on your editorial side, right.
Speaker A:Where you're using a lot of.
Speaker A:Of optical snoots and, you know, hard edge lighting and whatnot.
Speaker A:And I love this very highly colored, inspired work that is so different than your branding work that is so different from your boudoir work.
Speaker A:Like, I love the fact that you're able to have that creativity and to, you know, answer my question in a way that you're like, no, I don't want to recreate anything because those images were made.
Speaker A:How do I do it differently?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There was an example of creative integrity, right.
Speaker A:Of you saying that you want to stay in yourself and make sure that everything is unique.
Speaker A:I. I just love it.
Speaker A:I think it was a great answer to the question.
Speaker A:I wanted to thank you about being so open and honest and vulnerable and really kind of putting things out there.
Speaker A:I don't know if you and I have had a conversation like this in the past, and I love hearing your approach to all of this.
Speaker A:There were so many moments in this conversation where I'm like, oh, my God, that's me.
Speaker A:Oh, my God, that's me.
Speaker A:Oh, my God, that's me.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And it makes me feel less alone.
Speaker A:I understand now why so many students come to you and seek you out, because there is this rapport that you're able to build very quickly.
Speaker A:There's this ease about you.
Speaker A:And I really.
Speaker A:I think that that's one of the things that sets you apart from a lot of other coaches.
Speaker A:We were talking earlier about authenticity versus manipulation, and I think just you being you brings in the right types of.
Speaker A:Of clients, the right types of students.
Speaker A:You and I both studied under Suit Bryce.
Speaker A:We both have had the opportunity to have our own businesses and succeed.
Speaker A:It sounded like at the beginning of your journey and the beginning of my journey that we were in this point of trying to prove ourselves right.
Speaker A:You're trying to prove that you're a good photographer and you're trying to do all the things that you've seen other coaches do.
Speaker A:When do you feel like.
Speaker A:Or was there a moment when you were like, I've got my own voice.
Speaker A:I've got something to say.
Speaker A:I don't have to be in the shadow of anyone else anymore.
Speaker B:It might be right now, weirdly, I.
Speaker C:Don'T know, because, like, I've really, in the past few years have tried to, like, go my own path and set my own way and, like, but when I think about, like, even though I didn't expect, I 100 did not expect to win any awards when I started entering competitions.
Speaker C:And that work was work that was just purely creative.
Speaker C:And, like, luckily, my friend Rachel Owen, who, if you ever have a chance, I don't know if you've been on this, but she's amazing.
Speaker C:Have her on, like, you know, was so.
Speaker C:Because I.
Speaker C:When I was doing those bonus episodes of the Portrait System podcast, I got to interview her, and then I reached out to her and was like, hey, like, you know, awards confuse me.
Speaker C:I have this creative work.
Speaker B:I was thinking, think it's kind of good, but, like, I don't know.
Speaker B:Whenever I seem to enter stuff, it just gets bronze.
Speaker C:And, like, not that it's bad to get bronze, but, like, you know, I don't get it.
Speaker C:I don't get it.
Speaker C:And she was able to, like, explain to me, like, it is really, like, your work is really good.
Speaker C:And this is.
Speaker C:This is the things that you could have edited in your photo that you didn't see that you could have fixed.
Speaker C:And then this would have been a silver.
Speaker C:And it changed my whole, like, mindset.
Speaker C:So then when I would start working on these creative images, I take that mindset.
Speaker C:And so then I started winning awards because I would eventually, if I thought an image was good enough, submit it.
Speaker C: ike, I won my category in PPA: Speaker B:And like I said, I just went.
Speaker C:I went my own way.
Speaker C:And I thought I was carving out in this tangential new business.
Speaker C:I thought I was carving my own lane.
Speaker C:And maybe I'm just having the epiphany right now of, like, what happened, but maybe I thought I needed to, like, be slightly over here to.
Speaker C:To have my own Lane, right.
Speaker C:To not be a portrait system mentor or to be my own person or whatever, I had to be in a slight doing something slightly different.
Speaker C:And it, it did kind of blow up in my face, whether I deserved it or not.
Speaker C:And it did kind of then reroute me though, back to basics, back to fundamental head down work in your own photo business.
Speaker C:Relearn what you need to relearn.
Speaker C:Redo the website, re.
Speaker C:Think about how you market yourself.
Speaker C:Rethink about the messaging, think about your pricing, think about your energetic exchange.
Speaker C:Think about who you are now.
Speaker C:And I do think when that client said to me, like, you're the Ashley Taylor, which is so silly and like, so, so silly.
Speaker C:And I don't think of myself like that at was just a recalibration to, oh yeah, I'm my own person.
Speaker C:I have carved out a name for myself.
Speaker C:I have 15 years of experience.
Speaker C:So much of that I was trying to prove myself in that tangential business.
Speaker C:I was really trying to prove myself.
Speaker C:Didn't work out.
Speaker C:Cool.
Speaker C:Not cool, but, you know, interesting.
Speaker C:I guess now I get to just be me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:In my own way.
Speaker C:And I don't even know like what the future holds.
Speaker C:Like, I love conversations like this.
Speaker C:I, oh, I love the first time we had our first conversation on the like Clubhouse episode.
Speaker C:Clubhouse, yeah, yeah, I, I love doing shit like this, you know, so it's like, I don't know.
Speaker C:But I again, I held myself from starting my own podcast because not metrics and starting from scratch and who cares about me?
Speaker C:And like, maybe what I, I'm realizing in this particular defining moment of being a guest here today is like, and is something actually has been a message that I've been learning all year is like, do the thing because you love to do the thing, not because you're going to get accolades for it, get attention for it, get in some cases money for it.
Speaker C:Again, it's really hard.
Speaker C:We live in a capitalistic society and you have to pay your bills.
Speaker C:So like, of course the goal is.
Speaker B:To get money for the things that.
Speaker C:You spend your free time or whatever your time on.
Speaker C:But at the end of the day, when I think about my life, if I was thinking about the last day of my life, I love being open, raw, real, having deep con.
Speaker C:I've always was the kid at the sleepover who wanted to stay up all night and have like the deepest conversations about the universe, you know, and like, I just like that stuff.
Speaker C:So I think maybe for me the defining moment is like, just be yourself and don't attach so much of the outcome to everything, Just do things for the love of doing them.
Speaker C:And of course, you have to have a business mindset in the things that you're pursuing commercially, but you don't need to pursue everything.
Speaker C:Doesn't need to be a commercial endeavor either.
Speaker A:Not everything needs to be commercial.
Speaker A:Not everything needs to make you money.
Speaker A:And I think, think when we're in business for ourselves, we sometimes lose sight of that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we're like, why should I spend any time doing anything if it's not going to bring some level of income?
Speaker A:And so you wind up forgetting about all the stuff that's just fun to do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you're only focused on work.
Speaker A:From what I've heard in this conversation, you found that voice a while back.
Speaker A:You're now allowing yourself to speak from that voice, right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You've now realized, like, oh, yeah, this is the.
Speaker A:The woman that I know I am and I've been trying to be.
Speaker A:Everything just kind of aligned, and now I get to be that person for myself and no one else.
Speaker A:That's got to be a very liberating, very powerful feeling.
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier, you asked about podcast how there might be a little fear, a bit little like, are people going to like me or whatnot?
Speaker A:Every single point, I go, well, no one's listening anyway, so just do it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's one thing that gets me over and says, you know what?
Speaker A:We can have this conversation and it'll be fine.
Speaker A:Being able to relieve yourself of that burden and pressure of what others might think of you is that inflection point of finding your voice.
Speaker A:And it sounds like you've nailed it that you're not putting anything into competition.
Speaker A:I know we got icon going on the PPA Awards.
Speaker A:There's so many awards competitions.
Speaker A:You haven't entered anything this year.
Speaker C:I hope to have something next year.
Speaker C:I think I just don't have anything in time, honestly, this year.
Speaker C:And, like, again, I don't like to have pressure on myself.
Speaker C:I like to.
Speaker C:Well, I always put pressure on myself, so I don't like to put extra pressure on myself.
Speaker C:I don't want to say, like, for example, I don't want to be like.
Speaker B:Well, I got two weeks left to submit, so the model thing, like, that's not.
Speaker C:My brain doesn't work under those constraints very well.
Speaker C:And I just.
Speaker C:This year has been so much in, like, this reckoning of the soul, I guess, to, like, I didn't have it in me to.
Speaker C:Although I was doing creative things with the singing and stuff due like in the photography.
Speaker C:It is something that's been very intuitively clear to me that I need to get back to even if I don't submit it to awards.
Speaker C:Because like I said, I got shiny object syndrome.
Speaker C:I went on this tangential path thinking I was carving out a new business for myself.
Speaker C:And in that it that was what originally steered me away from the time to have the creative shoots and all that.
Speaker C:And I think when I was doing the creative shoots and again the awards are just like a little fun byproduct of it.
Speaker C:I was really being in community, I was really being with other artists.
Speaker C:I was being really creative.
Speaker C:And that's the piece that I really miss.
Speaker C:Not the accolade but I also really.
Speaker B:Liked like again I think about Rachel and Emily.
Speaker B: Pearl and I were in London in: Speaker C:And that was just so very fun.
Speaker C:Same thing with PPA is and then I got to meet more creative people and like that's what's so very fun about it is the community and cheering other people on as well and just seeing the level of work and seeing the creativity that's out there.
Speaker C:And so I do want to get back into that because I do think that I did lose a little bit of myself when I went off course and stopped doing those things.
Speaker C:But that's part of the game.
Speaker C:So I don't have anything to submit this year, sadly.
Speaker C:But we watch this space.
Speaker B:I hope to be back.
Speaker B:I hope, I hope to be making more are scandalous images.
Speaker A:Scandalous.
Speaker A:That's a new word for me from Wicked.
Speaker B:It's stolen from the movie Wicked.
Speaker B:You have to be a musical theater kid to understand I am not that guy.
Speaker A:But willing to sit with them at the lunch table.
Speaker A:Listen, thank you for being here.
Speaker A:Where can people find everything?
Speaker A:Is it Ashley Taylor Photography Schlangent Taylor portrait?
Speaker C:Ashley is spelled very challengingly.
Speaker C:It's a S H L E I G H. So I.
Speaker C:You know, my parents had to make me extra.
Speaker B:I think there is another somewhere out there.
Speaker B:Ashley Taylor with an ey and I'm not her and she is not me.
Speaker B:So in the photography space.
Speaker B:No, no shade to her.
Speaker C:But you would get on a different right if you did.
Speaker C:If you didn't spell it correct.
Speaker C:Correct.
Speaker A:I'm going to put the the newly beautiful website in the show notes and then I'll link to all your socials there too.
Speaker A:So if anybody wants to get in touch with you.
Speaker A:They can do that.
Speaker A:Just check the show notes.
Speaker A:All the information's in there.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker A:I know we went.
Speaker A:We went long.
Speaker A:I was like, yeah, maybe it'll be an hour.
Speaker A:And we're at, like, an hour and 45 minutes.
Speaker A:Suddenly, we became the Rogan podcast, and we're just doing three, four hours.
Speaker A:But there was a lot to talk about, about, and this was really, really fun.
Speaker A:Thanks for taking time out of your day to do it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thank you so much for, like, giving me the space to talk about some of the things that I've gone through and the lessons that I've learned, because it's.
Speaker C:It's really defining and memorable for me and gets me clear on myself as well.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:While I hope it helps others, it.
Speaker B:Actually was, like, very helpful just for.
Speaker C:Me to be here.
Speaker B:So thank you so much.
Speaker A:You're welcome.
Speaker A:All right, I will talk to you soon.
Speaker A:Hopefully I'll see you on the road somewhere.
Speaker A:Imaging or WPPI or.
Speaker A:Or something.
Speaker A:Maybe I'll see you in an off off Broadway Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Speaker B:I would love that.
Speaker B:That would be the dream.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:All right, I'll keep my eyes out, see if there's Santa Barbara community theater that I can attend.
Speaker A:All right, thanks so much.
Speaker A:I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker C:Fair.
Speaker B:Bye, Matt.
