Ep. 058 - Sue Bryce: Why the Game is NOT Rigged
Matt Stagliano and return guest Sue Bryce dive deep into the wild world of photography and the many hurdles that come with chasing success in this episode. Kicking things off, they tackle the main theme: the notion that "The Photography Game is Rigged," a title that has sparked quite the conversation. We explore how the industry can sometimes feel like a minefield of outdated beliefs and myths that tell aspiring photographers there's only one 'right' way to achieve success. Sue and Matt share their own experiences and insights, revealing the real deal behind personal branding, vendor relationships, and the all-too-familiar self-doubt that plagues creatives. It's an honest, no-holds-barred chat that encourages us to redefine what success means on our own terms, rather than letting external validation dictate our worth.
Podcast Title: Generator
Episode Title: Why the Game is NOT Rigged
Episode Number: 58
Publish Date: 12 August 2025
Episode Overview
Matt Stagliano and Sue Bryce tackle the age-old conundrum of success in photography in a lively and insightful episode that promises to resonate with creatives everywhere. Inspired by Matt's eye-catching video, *The Photography Game is Rigged*, the duo explores the myths surrounding success in their field, particularly the misconception that external validation through sponsorships and brand partnerships is the ultimate goal. The conversation flows effortlessly between humor and serious reflection, as they dissect the pressures photographers face and the importance of carving out one's own path in an industry rife with expectations.
Throughout their discussion, they emphasize the need to shift perspectives from viewing success as a one-size-fits-all achievement to embracing the idea that each photographer’s journey is unique. Sue’s ability to playfully poke holes in Matt’s arguments pushes the dialogue forward, making for an engaging exchange filled with laughter and valuable insights. This isn't just a podcast episode; it's a call to action for photographers to redefine success on their own terms and to remember that creativity should thrive beyond the confines of traditional metrics. If you're looking for inspiration and a fresh perspective on what it means to succeed in photography, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and wit.
Takeaways:
- The photography industry is full of myths about what success looks like, and these can mislead aspiring photographers.
- Validation and approval from others shouldn't define your success; self-worth is key in navigating your photography career.
- Navigating the photography business requires building relationships, understanding branding, and evolving your personal identity as a creator.
- It's crucial to recognize that the obstacles we perceive are often self-imposed and can be overcome with the right mindset.
- Being a photographer doesn't limit you to just taking photos; you can create various products and services under your personal brand.
- Success isn't just about the numbers; it's about finding fulfillment in your work and evolving as a creator without getting trapped in traditional paths.
Calls to Action
- Website: https://generatorpodcast.com
- Subscribe to Generator: Never miss an episode – subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
- Leave a Review: Head over to https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/generator/id1668192673 and leave us a 5 Star review if you liked the show! Help others discover this podcast.
- Follow on Social Media: Connect with us on Instagram or TikTok @generatorpodcast or on YouTube @stonetreecreative
Transcript
Well, here we are again, folks.
Speaker A:And I know it's been a minute since my last episode, but I've had a lot of things in the works.
Speaker A:And since Generator is really just my passion project, I felt okay with taking a couple of weeks off to concentrate on all the other stuff.
Speaker A:It's also summer here in Maine, and I want to spend more time outside than in front of a computer.
Speaker A:So let me acknowledge that, yes, I'm inconsistent.
Speaker A:However, I never really want to just dump content out there.
Speaker A:I want Generator to be valuable to you, and I want the conversations to mean something.
Speaker A:So this week, the episode is just a little bit different.
Speaker A:Let me set the context back.
Speaker A:Near the end of June, I started the Generator YouTube channel.
Speaker A:I had been hosting all of the videos on the Stone Tree Creative YouTube channel, and, well, it just started to confuse the brand intentions.
Speaker A:So before this show grew anymore, I wanted it to have a home of its own.
Speaker A:In addition, I wanted to start creating more content with my personal opinion, since there's just so much that I want to say.
Speaker A:Okay, so while I was getting everything moved over, I made a video called the Photography Game is Rigged now in full transparency.
Speaker A:After watching a bunch of YouTube experts and taking some courses on video strategy, I wanted to make a title and a thumbnail that got attention, right?
Speaker A:And boy, did it ever.
Speaker A:In the first week, the video got somewhere around 10,000 views, and here, about a month later, it's a little over 13,000.
Speaker A:So, obviously something resonated in the video.
Speaker A:I talk all about how there are these myths and beliefs that you have to go about photography in a certain way if you want to have a successful career.
Speaker A:I put out a couple of teaser reels to get eyeballs on it, and the video just took off.
Speaker A:Now, for the most part, comments on YouTube were pretty supportive, and I liked the dialogue that it created, but I knew it would strike a nerve within the photo community.
Speaker A:And then I got a text from Sue Bryce.
Speaker A:She had watched one of the reels and immediately texted me saying that she wanted to play devil's advocate and have a discussion about what it was that I said.
Speaker A:Now, these are the moments that I live for.
Speaker A:I respect the hell out of sue for everything she's done both in and for this industry.
Speaker A:And I wouldn't still be in business if it weren't for all the things that I learned from her over the years.
Speaker A:So we set up a call for a few days later, and we agreed to record it.
Speaker A:And that's what this episode is.
Speaker A:It's an open and Honest conversation that explores all the things that we think, our perceptions and the obstacles that we create for ourselves.
Speaker A:We talk about Sue's experiences navigating this business, building your personal brand identity, working with sponsors, speaking on stage, how we go about our self talk, vendor relationships, basically everything involved with defining what success looks like to you.
Speaker A:In all honesty, I should have put this out a few weeks ago and capitalized on the momentum of the video.
Speaker A:But there are only so many hours in the day and chasing likes and vanity numbers is never really what I want to do.
Speaker A:But I wanted to make sure that this was the first thing that I posted in follow up to that video.
Speaker A:With the exception of a few quick edits where we stumble over word pronunciation, this is exactly how we record it and that's how I wanted you to hear it.
Speaker A:I'll get back to my regular cadence of episodes probably next week.
Speaker A:So thanks as always for listening, but for now let's get on with the show.
Speaker A:This little special episode that I have with my guest, Sue Bryce.
Speaker A:I just wanted to say thank you for reaching out because clearly it's something I said struck a chord and I love talking about this stuff.
Speaker A:So there was no like, oh my God, I'm gonna get yelled at or like anything like that.
Speaker A:I just really love the fact that you wanted to have this conversation because I think it's, it's going to be great for everybody.
Speaker A:No matter what I say, what you say, I think it's.
Speaker A:These are the conversations that need to happen.
Speaker A:These are the conversations that need to happen.
Speaker A:Let's talk a little bit about the video that I made and just to kind of set the stage for folks that are listening, made a video called the Photography Game is Rigged.
Speaker A:And it really was a 6 minute video of me going on with the intention of helping younger artists realize that there is more new photography in the craft and self worth and self satisfaction than just chasing brands and sponsorships and all of that.
Speaker A:That does not mean that equals success.
Speaker A:That was the overall point.
Speaker A:Now I went back and listened after you texted me and I wanted to listen to it without my brain.
Speaker A:And so I sat back and I said, well, where are the gaps in the arguments that I was making?
Speaker A:And I found a bunch.
Speaker A:There's truck size holes that you can drive through.
Speaker A:I'd love to understand from your point of view what you thought, what you felt and really kind of your opinions on the matter.
Speaker B:You were not wrong at all in any of it.
Speaker B:I was listening to you and my first, well, my first reaction is I Love Matt and I support Matt.
Speaker B:You know, like, when I follow people, I stop and pause and listen to people and, you know, and I even liked it when I saw your face and you started talking.
Speaker B:I realized I liked your post before I listened to it.
Speaker A:That means a lot to me.
Speaker A:I appreciate that.
Speaker A:That makes me feel.
Speaker B:I know it is good because that's how I hold you in high regard.
Speaker B:But then I started to listen to it and I realized I couldn't take my like away because what you were saying triggered me, and that's the whole point.
Speaker B:So what was the trigger?
Speaker B:A lot of what you said was said to me, and I'm now at the other end going, well, who do you think you are telling anybody that they can't do anything?
Speaker B:So there was a lot to unpack in that one little vent that you had.
Speaker B:But mostly I really just wanted to say when I started to listen to you, I was like, oh, well, Matt, you can't have an argument with just one person.
Speaker B:So you said, I was.
Speaker B:You started an argument and then you entered.
Speaker B:You didn't argue with anybody because you.
Speaker B:It wasn't a dialogue, it was a monologue, and you were just speaking out loud, but you were saying all the right things that were going to trigger people in multiple different ways.
Speaker B:So I just wanted to talk about how it triggered me.
Speaker A:I'd love it.
Speaker B:For starters, I believe when you say that you're talking about that there is a perception that people take these steps too quickly.
Speaker B:You know, like, I'm going to go up on stage and teach on stage.
Speaker B:And it's like, really?
Speaker B:You've been around for like, one year.
Speaker B:And to me, a lot of that happens, right?
Speaker B:A lot of the time in our industry, people are coming on up.
Speaker B:There's one thing I noticed.
Speaker B:You don't go up on the stage unless you really want to be up on the stage.
Speaker B:It's just a thing.
Speaker B:And it's a small percentage of people, a really small percentage of our industry, in any industry, when you look, there's probably 95% of the people in the audience.
Speaker B:There's a part of them that reveres it, for sure.
Speaker B:There's a part of them that envies it.
Speaker B:There's a part of them that sees it and thinks, oh, I wish I was that confident.
Speaker B:But they have no desire to get up there on that stage.
Speaker B:And you could be a working photographer your whole life and never get up on stage, never teach anything, never have a YouTube channel, never make digital products, and just be a photographer your whole life.
Speaker B:And I would say that's like 90 plus percent of the industry.
Speaker B:But there is this small percentage of people that have star power, the creators, the stars that have something to give, they like to be industry leaders.
Speaker B:They definitely stand out in a group of people.
Speaker B:They're the sparklier ones, you know, in a networking group.
Speaker B:And even then the creators, like I was not one of those, I'm not a star, I'm a creator.
Speaker B:You know, I spend all my time in creation.
Speaker B:It was just a very natural progression for me to grow.
Speaker B:So that was just what I felt straight away.
Speaker B:What triggered me was I heard all those things and I'm here in spite of it anyway.
Speaker B:So what I would love you to do is to not temper yourself now, but to actually say things that are true and like, this is how it feels sometimes.
Speaker B:This is what some people feel like.
Speaker B:I'd rather hear the real what people think and feel inside, then put on a conversation for people to understand.
Speaker A:There are a lot of things, right, so six minute video, you can only say so much, right?
Speaker A:I'm trying to build the, the whole intention behind this is I'm trying to build the YouTube channel for generator.
Speaker A:This is like the first video that I've made me pontificating, right?
Speaker A:I'm always having guests on, we're always talking and I'm like, all right, well, I need to create some additional content, right?
Speaker A:So I seem to have good conversations.
Speaker A:What do people say?
Speaker A:Let me make a video about it.
Speaker A:And the first thing that came to was this, right?
Speaker A:Because a lot of people talk to me about like, all right, well, I want to teach, I want to be on stage, I want to get, you know, how do I get Fuji or Canon or Sony or Godox or anybody to.
Speaker A:To notice me?
Speaker A:The more and more I heard that, especially from younger photographers, it started to make me realize that something is going on where we're creating that belief for people now.
Speaker A:That's not to say that someone that has six months experience doesn't have something to say and can't get noticed and be on stage, right?
Speaker A:There's someone to say that someone that'40 years in doesn't necessarily deserve stardom just because they've got tenure, right?
Speaker A:I think it really comes down to the quality of the content and the quality of how you treat people and the relationships that you build and being enough in yourself that you don't need the external validation for you to feel successful.
Speaker A:The folks that I know that do have brand deals, that do work with sponsors that do play the game As I defined it, are all incredibly hard workers.
Speaker A:There's not a person out there that I think they don't deserve that.
Speaker A:They work hard, they develop their relationships.
Speaker A:These are the things that happen.
Speaker A:What I was trying to really get across was there's no monolithic way to navigate this business.
Speaker A:What I say may not work for you, may not work for the next person, but I need to recognize that there is this thing that's going on.
Speaker A:People seem to believe that that pursuit of approval is equal to success.
Speaker A:And that's what I was trying to break down because there's two completely separate things.
Speaker A:You know, the pursuit of approval is one thing.
Speaker A:You succeeding in feeling successive as a photographer is a different one.
Speaker A:So that was really the intention behind it.
Speaker A:I also, you know, in retrospect, didn't talk about what we should do.
Speaker A:Instead, I didn't recognize kind of my own privilege, meaning I have my experience.
Speaker A:That doesn't mean someone else doesn't have a good valid experience as well.
Speaker A:And I also listened back to it and I was thinking of you when I listened to it because my tone sounded defeated.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:That's the last thing that I wanted to come across.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I listened to and I could hear like, wow, I sound like a curmudgeon.
Speaker A:And I'm not trying to sound like a. I'm trying to foster a conversation.
Speaker A:But when it's one sided, you know, you just kind of talk.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:So well, let's just acknowledge one thing.
Speaker B:It is curmudgeon because it is a bitterness and that's what we all carry.
Speaker B:I have the same thoughts.
Speaker B:Don't think that I don't feel exactly the same way.
Speaker B:So what is the metric?
Speaker B:What is the metric that you have to prove yourself on before you can jump in there?
Speaker B:What is that then?
Speaker B:So this is the bit that really gets me.
Speaker B:It's like I want photographers to wake up to something.
Speaker B:Whatever you think the industry, the professional photography industry, this pyramid is, we got in first with a hierarchy.
Speaker B:That's not the rules.
Speaker B:You are here to build a brand and create a creative business.
Speaker B:The fact that you use your camera means you're a photographer, but that's not your whole identity.
Speaker B:And this is the problem with photographers.
Speaker B:Okay, why did you call your business Stone Tree Creative and not Matt Stagliano?
Speaker B:Be honest.
Speaker A:I want.
Speaker A:Because I wanted to build a business that would get acquired down the line and I wanted to keep my name.
Speaker B:So you built a company brand, but you exist in that brand as a personal Brand?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Is it really sellable if it's just you taking the photos and you doing the.
Speaker B:And you being the Matt Signato and the face and the brand?
Speaker B:This is where photographers have gotten really confused over the last 20 years.
Speaker B:We've built company brands, but we're personal brands.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We don't have business partners and multiple staff.
Speaker B:Usually we're just personal brands.
Speaker B: Solopreneurs operating with: Speaker B:That's how I'd like you to make money.
Speaker B:So if I'm a personal brand, and let's say I'm Matt Stagliano, and then suddenly somebody local, you want to move to Arizona and come and join the sun with us.
Speaker B:So somebody local says, matt, I want to buy Stone Tree Creative.
Speaker B:I want to buy that business off you.
Speaker B:You sell that business.
Speaker B:Who are you right now?
Speaker B:Who are you?
Speaker B:You're still Matt Stagnano, right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you walk away.
Speaker B:You're your name, and then you've sold this little business.
Speaker B:The chances of that happening is one in one million.
Speaker B:You would have to have a really solid local database that would transfer to a new photographer and a new owner.
Speaker B:And the truth is, is you're trying to sell a personal brand, but it's called something else.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So I actually think with the evolution of personal brand becoming this big thing now, people don't follow brands.
Speaker B:They follow people.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So Nike is in the top 20 Instagram followers.
Speaker B:There's only two brands in the top 20.
Speaker B:All the rest are people.
Speaker B:We don't follow brands.
Speaker B:We follow people.
Speaker B:And guess what brand it is?
Speaker B:It's Nike.
Speaker B:And guess how Nike got so famous they put all the people that play sports, all those personal brands at the front of their product.
Speaker B:So a personal brand and a product brand together is the ultimate brand.
Speaker B:But people don't follow brands.
Speaker B:So for Nike to be in the top 20 of Instagram followers, and I think when you take out all the Kardashians, the top five are literally football players, soccer players, like Ronaldo.
Speaker B:They're the highest following on Instagram.
Speaker B:So the fact that it's like soccer players, the Kardashians, I think Selena Gomez is in there.
Speaker B:And then Nike tells you everything you need to know.
Speaker B:So I now teach personal brands.
Speaker B:So I sold the photography business if I was only a photographer, and then what would I be if you took that away from me?
Speaker B:It's like, I'm not just a photographer.
Speaker B:I am all of these things.
Speaker B:So I think what happens is the problem is we start thinking, you know, look, other people are getting big audiences.
Speaker B:And if somebody is creating content around photo and they're getting a big audience, that audience is worth a whole lot of money to camera houses, vendors, anybody that you're plugged into.
Speaker B:It's the audience they want.
Speaker B:So they're looking for somebody that can build an audience.
Speaker B:And if you happen to be a Nikon shooter and you're building an audience, Nikon is going to look at you because you're bringing an audience.
Speaker B:But what happens is people think that they can just bring their beautiful work, but if you have no followers and they're not going to look at you, so start to look at yourself more like a personal brand.
Speaker B:What do I bring to this table?
Speaker B:As a personal brand?
Speaker B:You're not a company.
Speaker B:You're Matt Stagniano.
Speaker B: en I built my photo studio in: Speaker B:And really I should have built a personal brand around me.
Speaker B:I should have been more of me.
Speaker B:And when it's about me, you can't say that I'm just a photographer.
Speaker B:You don't know what my background is.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of the time people come up to me and they go, I want to speak on stage.
Speaker B:And I know that they're just starting out as a photographer and their work is not standing out yet.
Speaker B:It's okay, They've got maybe 5, 10,000 followers on Instagram, if that.
Speaker B:But then I find out that they did public speaking training when they were like 21 and did it for four years.
Speaker B:So they're very confident being on stage.
Speaker B:Well, let's say you get a brand new photographer that's not that good at what they're doing, but they, they want to start sharing it and then all of a sudden people are following them.
Speaker B:They're following them because what they're sharing is good.
Speaker B:Because when it's not good, you don't follow.
Speaker B:And if somebody can get up on that stage, if they can, it's easier to get invited up on the stage than it is to get invited back.
Speaker B:Then you have to get up on that stage and slay or else nobody in that room will stand up and clap.
Speaker B:So it doesn't take long for the fraudsters, the fakesters, the wannabes, the.
Speaker B:I'm too fast, but I'm here anyway for all of those people to melt down.
Speaker B:It doesn't take long.
Speaker B:I've seen it.
Speaker B:CreativeLive would get, people come in and they would be filled with bravado.
Speaker B:But they get up on that stage and they had nothing to give.
Speaker B:And it didn't take long before everyone was like, boo, get off the stage.
Speaker B:So what we're really trying to fight here is our own belief.
Speaker B:You said we're giving young photographers the belief that this is a path that they can activate.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It's a path you can activate.
Speaker B:So instead of judging it, why don't you activate this path for yourself?
Speaker B:I'm not speaking to you, Matt.
Speaker A:No, I understand.
Speaker B:Out there.
Speaker B:I'm speaking to everybody out there that feels blocked.
Speaker B:You know, when you criticize somebody else, you're saying, I can't do this.
Speaker B:When you say, I'm stuck, you say, there are no solutions.
Speaker B:That's helplessness, that's victimhood.
Speaker B:When you say, I can't and somebody else is, you're saying, they've got it, I haven't.
Speaker B:They're taking it from me.
Speaker B:That's not true.
Speaker B:There is enough for everybody.
Speaker B:So what I want to say is this.
Speaker B:If you have one thing that you are good at outside of photo, whether it's marketing, business, emails, systems, anything, networking, anything that you're good at, naturally that would move the needle forward for other people that you do not struggle with, that you do well, you can make a digital product around that thing.
Speaker B:You do not have the right to tell me I'm not qualified to teach anything or do anything or share anything that I have lived experience for.
Speaker B:So instead of looking at people and saying, what are they doing?
Speaker B:Why are they doing it?
Speaker B:Who do they think they are?
Speaker B:I have to look at myself and say, what am I not doing?
Speaker B:What do I want to do?
Speaker B:What is it I should be doing, but I'm not doing and I'm throwing shade at other people.
Speaker B:It's so easy to do that.
Speaker B:I have seen instructors get up on stage that are not ready to be instructors.
Speaker B:I felt it, you felt it.
Speaker B:We all saw it.
Speaker B:What happens?
Speaker B:They weren't up there for very long.
Speaker B:So it was one of the hardest things to believe that I was qualified enough to stand up on that stage.
Speaker B: The first time, which was: Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Did I change thousands of people's lives and build an entire world platform and career from that stage over the last 15 years?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Did people tell me I couldn't do it all the time?
Speaker B:So instead, what I would rather do is have photographers come now.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I just want to address one thing.
Speaker B:Photographers are Purists.
Speaker B:There's something about us that when you become a photographer, you have to get in the line of the hierarchy of the ones that stood before you.
Speaker B:And how do you change a thing?
Speaker B:Well, guess what?
Speaker B:When I started photography, I had a Hasselblad with 120 millimeter film.
Speaker B:That's purist.
Speaker B:I had a dark room that I could go down into and smell those chemicals and print my own work.
Speaker B:That's purist.
Speaker B:And when they changed to digital cameras, I hated it and I hated them.
Speaker B:But I evolved.
Speaker B:I evolved my business, I evolved my photography, I evolved my brand.
Speaker B:When they told us, this is Photoshop, you don't paint your photographs anymore.
Speaker B:I am a professional retouch artist with a paintbrush.
Speaker B:I had to learn a computer program years.
Speaker B:I mastered it, I mastered it.
Speaker B:I evolved my brand, I evolved my business.
Speaker B:36 years in August 15, I have been a professional photographer.
Speaker B:I have done nothing but evolve myself, evolve my craft, evolve my brand, evolve my product.
Speaker B:I don't know what to say to people other than this is now.
Speaker B:You've got endless possibility.
Speaker B:There's no hierarchy.
Speaker B:There aren't even conferences anymore.
Speaker B:We have WPBI and ppa.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:If you're fighting for stage time, you're fighting for that stage.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:There's no other platforms until we build a new one.
Speaker B:So what are you fighting for?
Speaker B:You're fighting for screen time, you're fighting for YouTube time, you're fighting for bums on seats, you're fighting for followers and you're fighting for that audience.
Speaker B:But really what you're doing is putting out content that people will pay for.
Speaker B:So if there's something inside you that could be a digital product that will help other businesses, other people, other creatives, do it, share it, teach it, build it, make it, sell it, make money from it, be a personal brand.
Speaker B:Stop.
Speaker B:Stop telling me that there's limits in this industry when I have proved time and time again that there are not.
Speaker A:And I think that's a really, really valuable point.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:There is.
Speaker A:There are no limits.
Speaker A:There really are not.
Speaker A:There are obstacles, there are challenges, there are things that come with experience.
Speaker A:You're like, oh, I screwed that up, I shouldn't have done that.
Speaker A:All right, learn for next time.
Speaker A:Or that person is two faced or that person's amazing and like you just learn these things through experience.
Speaker A:But the only limits that are there in terms of success are the ones that you put on yourself.
Speaker A:And if, and if you put your own worth and your own Success in the hands of other people.
Speaker A:You're never going to see the vision that you want to see, in my opinion.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I just think, like, I speak this because I have done that in the past.
Speaker A:I've given people control over my career and I'm never left feeling fulfilled.
Speaker A:I'm always empty at the end going, I.
Speaker A:What just happened?
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why am I not getting anything out of this?
Speaker A:So when you had mentioned earlier, you know, the Stone Tree creative thing, right.
Speaker A:Stagliano is not the easiest name to pronounce.
Speaker A:Let's just say it.
Speaker B:It's phonetic, but.
Speaker A:It's phonetic.
Speaker A:But, you know, the thought was, after a couple of years of that, I realized it was not going to be the big creative agency that I had set out to build, that it wasn't something that I was going to sell.
Speaker A:And now underneath that, I've got photography and podcasting and video and writing and speaking and all of these things, all under a photography brand and listen, under.
Speaker B:A Matt Degliano ran.
Speaker A:So what, what I found, right, was I wanted to make it more, quite frankly, more with my name and connected to me rather than to a logo.
Speaker A:And so this is why I've started to do more and put these things out, because I have to learn it somehow.
Speaker A:And I don't want to get caught in saying, I should have started this last year.
Speaker A:I should have started YouTube at the beginning, right.
Speaker A:I should have started TikTok at the beginning, right?
Speaker A:You can't, you can't do any of that.
Speaker A:But what I'm doing now is from the personal brand course a while back, from the self worth course.
Speaker A:I've now got all these things in play at the same time.
Speaker A:Yeah, but, but I don't want to build brand after brand after brand after brand.
Speaker A:I just want to say, hey, I'm doing all of these things.
Speaker A:I've got my hands in all of these things, and it all comes back to me.
Speaker A:So I hear what you're saying loud and clear, and I think that you were right in saying that we are this personal brand and that is what people follow.
Speaker A:So having personality, the ability to be professional and also build relationships and be good at your craft, all of that comes into play.
Speaker B:I think this is the big thing.
Speaker B:Do you know how hard it is to become a photographer?
Speaker B:We get a camera and we just think we want to take pretty pictures and shoot and burn, right?
Speaker B:That's what we get.
Speaker B:Like, I started at $400.
Speaker B:The idea that somebody would give me $400 for a couple of hours Work just blew my mind back then and I was just like, what?
Speaker B:I want to just shoot and burn it, right?
Speaker B:But when you become a photographer, and I know this cause I coach thousands and thousands of photographers, the identity shift into a full time photographer.
Speaker B:It's almost like pulling yourself.
Speaker B:It's like at first you can't say it because you've got the cotton mouth.
Speaker B:You know, you're like, you can't even say it.
Speaker B:And then slowly you start to say, I'm a photographer.
Speaker B:And you watch a whole bunch of young.
Speaker B:Oh, I say young.
Speaker B:A whole bunch of early photographers.
Speaker B:And they all say things like, you know, when you're a photographer and you go out, you say, I'm a photographer.
Speaker B:And somebody goes, my niece is a photographer and she's not a photographer, she's just got a camera.
Speaker B:And what you're fighting is this identity to become this big photographer.
Speaker B:It took me years to be able to own that I was a professional photographer because I didn't have a high school or tertiary education.
Speaker B:So to me I was like, I can't say I'm a professional photographer.
Speaker B:It would be like saying, I'm a doctor and I'm not a doctor.
Speaker B:So it's like.
Speaker B:But then I realized something.
Speaker B:I was like, it takes so long for you to say that you're a photographer.
Speaker B:You finally start to say it and own it.
Speaker B:Like when you finally feel worthy enough, like you're starting to take photos where you think these are the photos that a real photographer would take.
Speaker B:And then someone tells you that they're shit or whatever and then you're there.
Speaker B:But that moment, like, you think of the first two or three years that you became a photographer.
Speaker B:Now I know why photographers hold so tightly to the identity of being a photographer.
Speaker B:It took you so long to actually own it.
Speaker B:And now I'm telling you to stop telling everyone you're a photographer.
Speaker B:You're a personal brand that does photography.
Speaker B:And guess what else?
Speaker B:You're a personal brand that does photography and whatever other products you want because you are a personal brand.
Speaker B:Now, how long do you want to be a photographer for?
Speaker B:Matt?
Speaker B:Let's say you shoot weddings.
Speaker B:You shoot 60 weddings a year.
Speaker B:They take you 13 hours a day.
Speaker B:It's hard on your back.
Speaker B:How long are you going to be a photographer for?
Speaker B:And let's say you want to retire from photography in five years, but you can't, Matt, You're a photographer and you're not allowed to give up photography to go podc, even though you did podcasting and video before you ever became a photographer.
Speaker B:Stop telling everybody what they have to be in.
Speaker B:Stop giving me the rules and what the limits are.
Speaker B:The limits are whatever you say they are.
Speaker B:I don't have those limits.
Speaker B:I don't hear other people poo pooing my ideas and my dreams anymore.
Speaker B:I don't hear it as nay saying.
Speaker B:I hear it as, those are your limits.
Speaker B:You sound really blocked.
Speaker B:And I'm trying to have a conversation about moving forward.
Speaker B:So I should probably go and have a conversation with somebody who's not blocked.
Speaker B:Like, I'm done with that.
Speaker B:I'm a personal brand.
Speaker B:I'm Sue Bryce.
Speaker B:I can earn money however I want.
Speaker B:Another thing in 21, 4-1-21, no joke.
Speaker B:I sold my company.
Speaker B:I have a non compete for five years, all right?
Speaker B:That means I'm free on April 1st next year.
Speaker B:So I thought I'll just wait and see what people build in photo.
Speaker B:You know, I'm going to wait and see what the next platform is, what the next conference is, what the next.
Speaker B:So I'm waiting.
Speaker B:Then I'm like, you know what photographers, Take your own future in your own hands.
Speaker B:Become a personal brand.
Speaker B:You are someone who offers photography in your business.
Speaker B:What else can you offer?
Speaker B:What else can you do?
Speaker B:What else can you become?
Speaker B:What else can you share?
Speaker B:What else can you sell?
Speaker B:I was just doing a coaching session yesterday.
Speaker B:As they walked away, I was like, hold up two fingers.
Speaker B:And they held up two fingers and they said, you have two objectives.
Speaker B:And they said, what is that?
Speaker B:And I said, after all, I said, you2 objectives.
Speaker B:Build an audience.
Speaker B:Create a product to sell to that audience.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:Those two things are the most powerful objectives.
Speaker B:So you wake up every day, how am I going to build and connect to my audience?
Speaker B:And what incredible products can I create to sell and share to said audience?
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:Stop overcomplicating this with what we are and what we're becoming and who's doing what.
Speaker B:And doesn't matter what people look like on Instagram.
Speaker B:Doesn't take long to get to the truth of what people like.
Speaker B:I love it how people are so like in your face on Instagram with their brand, but when you go to coach them, they're not making any money and it's all for show.
Speaker B:So, you know, stop looking at other people's Instagram and really refocus on your own personal brand and ask yourself some questions.
Speaker B:What do the next five years look like for me as a creator?
Speaker B:What does, what else can I create in my personal brand?
Speaker B:How can I grow my personal brand?
Speaker B:Because this is the future.
Speaker A:That couldn't be more spot on if you had listened to some of the conversations I've had with my friends, you know, so I'm 51 now, and I just had my, oh, can't believe the 30th college reunion, right?
Speaker A:And so I've always been a little bit kind of outside the fray.
Speaker A:And my friends are doctors and lawyers and Wall street executives, and most of them are retired now, and they're living this life, and they're like, what are you doing?
Speaker A:I'm like, I'm a photographer and I'm a creator, and I do all this stuff.
Speaker A:And they're like, oh, great.
Speaker A:And as it got me thinking, I wasn't comparing, say, your life is better than mine, but it really kind of brought home, wow, what is my future path on this?
Speaker A:And this is, you know, pretty recently, and I said, I. I believe.
Speaker A:Now, it might be a limiting belief, but I believe at 51, I've probably got a good 10 years of photography in me left before I'm like, just tapping out.
Speaker A:I'm like, I can't do it anymore.
Speaker A:My body's broken down.
Speaker B:60S the limit.
Speaker A:Yeah, the microphone in front of me, I can do as long as I have breath in my body.
Speaker A:And so for me, there's this transition period that I'm going through of, all right, I'm doing both of these things.
Speaker A:It's balance, it's wonderful.
Speaker A:I love.
Speaker A:I'm passionate about all of it.
Speaker A:And then when it's time to sunset the photography, I won't feel bad about doing it.
Speaker A:Like, oh, God, what am I going to do now?
Speaker A:Because I've already built so many other parts of my business that those will all be working just fine.
Speaker A:I'm just looking at things in a much larger sense than just my next client or, you know, what do my numbers say right now for my photography business?
Speaker A:I'm trying to think much larger than that and think more as a creator than building the identity around just photography.
Speaker B:I mean, that's really.
Speaker B:It, isn't it?
Speaker B:Is our identity just photographers?
Speaker B:I mean, it's a pretty cool identity.
Speaker B:I miss it.
Speaker B:You know, it's still on my name.
Speaker B:You know, I don't.
Speaker B:I obviously photograph every week.
Speaker B:I photograph friends and I photograph family, and I photograph like myself, and I film myself and I make content.
Speaker B:But I don't serve clients or photograph clients anymore.
Speaker B:And I miss that.
Speaker B:I miss what that felt like.
Speaker B:But the further I've gotten away from it, I'm also like 35 years, at 35 years of doing this.
Speaker B:Like, it was an incredible.
Speaker B:But it's not for the rest of my life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The personal brand to me is the thing you are, regardless of what you're doing right now, the opportunity to create products and services, physical products, digital products.
Speaker B:Digital services is now available to everyone and should be available to everyone.
Speaker B:And to me, it's just an incredible thing.
Speaker B:I will say something about the speakers, especially in photo, because we've got photographers listening.
Speaker B:We're always looking for new speakers.
Speaker B:Every podcast is looking for someone to interview.
Speaker B:Like, if you're sitting there waiting to get chosen, you're not asking for the opportunity.
Speaker B:Hey, I'd love to speak on your podcast.
Speaker B:This is what I'm.
Speaker B:This is my wheelhouse.
Speaker B:This is what I want to speak about.
Speaker B:So we've got to actually start to like, really put ourselves out there more as personal brands.
Speaker B:When it comes to speakers, there's two types of photographers.
Speaker B:There's the brilliant photographer that's good at shooting, that can't speak, can't hold an audience or a room.
Speaker B:It just kills me.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:They shouldn't, they shouldn't have to.
Speaker B:If they can hold a shoot, we're there to watch the shoot.
Speaker B:It's almost impossible doing the live shoot and teach at the same time.
Speaker B:I did it for years and it just would pull me apart.
Speaker B:For starters, I could smell something burning and it was all of my brain.
Speaker B:Secondly, I'm not shooting at the capacity I'm normally shooting at because I'm teaching instead of focus on the shooting.
Speaker B:So to me, I was never getting the magic.
Speaker B:I was getting good shots, but I wasn't getting what I'd normally get.
Speaker B:Yeah, we should not make people shoot and teach.
Speaker B:It's really hard to do.
Speaker B:So if you're just going to watch a remarkable shooter, but this person has no stage presence whatsoever.
Speaker B:To even talk to people, then they've got to be a remarkable shooter.
Speaker B:And the remarkableness of their shooting has to be obviously right there.
Speaker B:It can't be in post production because we're not going to wait for the magic.
Speaker B:If you can't show the magic of what you're doing, you're not an interesting photographer.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So if you want to get on stage as a photographer but you've got nothing to say, then make it very clear you're a live shooter.
Speaker B:Did you know the one thing that photographers hate more than anything in the world, and I've done it so many times, Creative Live, the portrait system.
Speaker B:My conference was shooting on stage.
Speaker B:Yeah, Even the best.
Speaker B:I've heard everybody saying that world, they hate it.
Speaker B:It's horrible.
Speaker B:It's like being naked in front of 600 people and shoot.
Speaker B:Doing a live shoot naked.
Speaker B:And everyone's just like.
Speaker B:It feels the most vulnerable you can feel.
Speaker B:And most photographers, we would tell them at TPM, we would say talk for 45 minutes and shoot for 45 minutes.
Speaker B:And a lot of them would talk for an hour and a quarter and shoot for 15, because it's the one thing that you have to then get up and do.
Speaker B:So the one thing we're missing in the industry is people who can live shoot.
Speaker B:If you think you're good enough to live shoot, put that out there right now.
Speaker B:You will get chosen.
Speaker B:It's the hardest thing to do is to actually stand up and say, I want to do a live shoot.
Speaker B:And trust me, if you can video yourself shooting and it's good and the results are good, you're.
Speaker B:You're already crossed off 5.
Speaker B:You will be at the top of most lists.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm telling you right now that some of the best photographers in the world don't want a live shooter.
Speaker A:Oh, I've heard everybody say that.
Speaker A:There's the pressure from speaking and then added pressure that, you know, you've got to take the kimono off and now you got to do it.
Speaker A:I, I don't know if I could do it.
Speaker A:I couldn't do it.
Speaker B:Well, the thing is, the other one is the photographers that can, that want to talk about business and marketing and all the other stuff.
Speaker B:And 99 of the time they'll get up and talk about themselves.
Speaker B:So are you going to shoot, Are you going to demonstrate or are you going to teach?
Speaker B:Because those are the two big things.
Speaker B:And you need to decide now, if you're going to teach, you better have something to teach.
Speaker B:And it's not, I'm going to teach business, it's I'm teaching marketing, I'm teaching networking.
Speaker B:It's specific.
Speaker B:So if you can dominate one area, you're going to stand out.
Speaker B:So if you're curating content and products in those areas, then I know you can speak in those areas because people are buying your stuff.
Speaker B:This is the thing.
Speaker B:Photographers are like, I just gotta get good enough to get chosen.
Speaker B:Not what are you giving on that stage.
Speaker B:What are you gonna get on that stage?
Speaker B:What are you gonna do on that stage?
Speaker B:You're all like, if I just get good enough to be chosen, then I'm in the top 10%.
Speaker B:Well, that's not how it works.
Speaker B:Now, again, a lot of people can get up on the stage.
Speaker B:Cause it comes from vendors.
Speaker B:If you wanna know how to get to the cameras to get on the stage, you go through your vendors.
Speaker B:If you don't have vendors, you don't have a relationship with any of the product owners, which means you're not going to get up on that stage.
Speaker B:It's the vendors that get you up on that stage.
Speaker B:That's how you've got to build relationships with those vendors.
Speaker B:So think of it like this.
Speaker B:I want to be a live shooter.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:Go and film yourself shooting and send it in.
Speaker B:Trust me, if you're good, you're going to get up on that stage.
Speaker B:I want to teach.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:What do you want to teach?
Speaker B:Are you teaching marketing?
Speaker B:Are you teaching money?
Speaker B:Are you teaching selling?
Speaker B:Are you teaching branding?
Speaker B:But you are not getting up there to just talk about yourself.
Speaker B:Because you'll last, like, a lot of people a year, and then you'll be like, I didn't get booked at any of the other conferences.
Speaker B:There aren't any other conferences.
Speaker A:There's no barrier to time in the industry for you to be able to say something, for you to be able to teach.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You can be into three months, you can be to three decades.
Speaker A:Doesn't matter.
Speaker A:You have to have something to say.
Speaker A:And what I've.
Speaker A:What I've seen in not only this industry, but in my previous industry was so many copycats.
Speaker A:And you called this out earlier where you said, you know, they'll flame out in six months, a year, and that's fine, but it shouldn't stop you from saying, well, I kind of talk about the same thing that he or she does, and they didn't make it.
Speaker A:So I don't want to.
Speaker A:I don't want to try that.
Speaker A:You're already doing it.
Speaker B:This is a big mistake.
Speaker B:Yeah, this is a big mistake.
Speaker B:And the mistake is being made with the content.
Speaker B:See, I'm a content curator.
Speaker B:I do it in my sleep.
Speaker B:I see people try to curate content outside of what I've curated almost purposefully.
Speaker B:Like, she didn't do this one thing.
Speaker B:So I'm just gonna do this one thing.
Speaker B:And I'm like, dude, you can replicate everything I taught.
Speaker B:If you can do it, if you've mastered it, you can replicate the teaching of anything.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:It's just how it is.
Speaker B:I mean, if you do something very well, you can replicate that into teaching.
Speaker B:I think we get a little bit confused with Some things.
Speaker B:Okay, if I say something a certain way and you copy the way I say it, you're copying me.
Speaker B:Yes, but I don't have the monopoly on teaching posing.
Speaker B:Even though I would say I have the monopoly on teaching posing 10 years ago.
Speaker B:I don't own that.
Speaker B:I don't have any ownership of that.
Speaker B:I have ownership of the copyright of the content I've already filmed.
Speaker B:You can't copy that.
Speaker B:But why aren't other people creating posing products?
Speaker B:They're only just coming up now.
Speaker B:I haven't been able to make posing products for nearly five years.
Speaker B:This was a huge part of my life, you know, so it doesn't matter if it didn't work for somebody else.
Speaker B:Here's how I explain it.
Speaker B:I might have taught you something in my business model, and you went to go and do that thing like setting up a sales system.
Speaker B:That does not take two days.
Speaker B:It takes three years to set up a sales system because you've got to work the system.
Speaker B:You've got to actually get good at the system.
Speaker B:Consultations and then production and keeping everything moving and then the momentum of money.
Speaker B:Setting up a sales system, extraordinary.
Speaker B:Now, you might say I'm really good at sales and I'm really good at showing people how to do a consultation right through to getting that money and giving them the product.
Speaker B:But Sue Bryce taught me my sales system, so I can't teach that.
Speaker B:And I was like, well, that's not true.
Speaker B:I told you to create a sales system and I gave you an outline.
Speaker B:You probably didn't follow it 100% at all.
Speaker B:Then you actually had to go and do it.
Speaker B:And your voice is different, your energy is different, your vibe is different.
Speaker B:So you found different ways to say it, different ways to do it.
Speaker B:You found a different way to work a system simply showed you your business can't move forward without a sales system.
Speaker B:I didn't trademark that sales system because it's just a system.
Speaker B:It might be my method, it might be my theory, it might even be my practice, but it is not mine to own.
Speaker B:And now you worked different.
Speaker B:I want to learn why you are good at sales, Matt.
Speaker B:Now, you could 100% say the base of my sales system came from my original mentor, suburise.
Speaker B:But then this is what I learned for photographers to make it even better.
Speaker B:It's your lived experience.
Speaker B:Credit your masters.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:If somebody taught you something, credit them.
Speaker B:Say it.
Speaker B:How I learned this was my mentor at the time.
Speaker B:She taught me this, which is important.
Speaker B:Then I realized this is a system that works like this.
Speaker B:You're just telling me your path forward, the way you did it, how you found mastery, how you made money, what worked for you, you.
Speaker B:And as long as you credit the people that taught you, you're not regurgitating anything.
Speaker B:You're showing people your way through.
Speaker B:And that's how I could get photographers to create education, because they were worried that they were copying me.
Speaker B:And I said, well, don't copy me.
Speaker B:There is that line.
Speaker B:People will copy you, don't copy.
Speaker B:But find your path through this, because that's what's important is how you do it, how you've mastered it, how you teach it.
Speaker B:That's what I'm interested in.
Speaker B:If you and I were neighbors and we were photographers, it would be very easy to say, sue Bryce is my neighbor.
Speaker B:How will I get work?
Speaker B:She's going to dominate me.
Speaker B:She's going to steal my clients.
Speaker B:She's going to.
Speaker B:She can only photograph 50 people a year.
Speaker B:And at her absolute maximum, in her personal brand, it was 150.
Speaker B:As a business, when I had other photographers, I could do 500 shoots a year.
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
Speaker B:But there's no way I can get more than 150, at my maximum in one year.
Speaker B:Tell me that there is not more than 150 people in your city that will go to you.
Speaker B:There is enough for everybody.
Speaker B:Even as a mentor.
Speaker B:I can only personally mentor four businesses a month, and even then, too.
Speaker B:Two if they need a lot of help.
Speaker B:Four if it's just I'm texting and doing one call a week.
Speaker B:I can't mentor more people than that.
Speaker B:That's more time that I'm giving away.
Speaker B:So you could see me as a coach and say she breaks this coaching stealing business.
Speaker B:No, she's seeing four people a month.
Speaker B:Dope.
Speaker B:It's not many people.
Speaker B:There's enough.
Speaker A:I think everything you're saying, right?
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The identity, the copying, whatnot.
Speaker A:I liken it a lot to templates, right?
Speaker A:You download a template and if you use all the verbiage that's in the template, invariably you're going to miss something and it's going to say lorem ipsum somewhere, right?
Speaker A:You have to be able to take that thing and make it yours and make it yours, mold it to your voice, Put your words in there, right?
Speaker A:Take the paragraph and just change the words, but at least make it sound like you, make it look like you, make it feel like you.
Speaker A:And this is the thing with, with education is I've seen some educators, let's say, take something from Joel Grimes, like, he'll do something on lighting and someone will take that and they'll change it and improve it to fit their style.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And maybe they come up with a new method of achieving the same look easier or more efficiently or whatever.
Speaker A:If they stop themselves from releasing that information, then people are missing out on this capability and it helps drive the industry forward.
Speaker A:The more people that are out there teaching their experience, so long as it's, you know, respectable material and isn't just some sort of snake oil, as long as they're teaching.
Speaker B:But again, if it's snake oil, it does.
Speaker B:It doesn't take long for someone to call snake oil.
Speaker A:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But what I'm saying is like the fear of putting something out because someone else has already done it or making a video because you saw something similar.
Speaker A:There's an audience for everyone.
Speaker A:Yeah, everyone.
Speaker A:And there is no limit.
Speaker A:And it blows my mind when people say there's not enough room in the industry or this person is impacting my business.
Speaker A:No, they're not.
Speaker A:No, they're not.
Speaker B:Exactly right.
Speaker A:Sue, I. I so respect your point of view on all of this because you have that lived experience and you've seen it from all angles and you've seen the evolution and you've kept up with it the whole way.
Speaker A:And it's just, it's really amazing to just hear your point of view on all of this.
Speaker A:There are some things that I learned from you that, yeah, I changed, but there's always the credit back to.
Speaker A:I wouldn't have a business running the way it is if I hadn't watched that first video and then kept watching and then figured out the parts that worked for me and got rid of the parts that didn't.
Speaker A:And here we are years later.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think that's the great thing that you get from other people's perspectives.
Speaker A:You get insight, you get more understanding of how you do what you do and the reasons why.
Speaker A:I know, for me, I am not someone that chases validation and affirmation and vanity numbers anymore.
Speaker A:I used to.
Speaker A:I absolutely 100% used to because that's what I thought would make me feel good.
Speaker A:And it didn't.
Speaker A:It didn't make me feel good at all.
Speaker A:It made me feel worse because I was just living in comparison.
Speaker A:So being able to step back from that and look at it in a way that is a bit more self friendly and, you know, more gentle with myself and that I look around, I'm like, I'm not doing so bad.
Speaker A:It's taking me some time But I'm not doing so bad.
Speaker A:I'm good with this.
Speaker A:That is the feeling that I want.
Speaker A:Not getting someone to say, you know what?
Speaker A:You're good enough.
Speaker A:I already know that I'm fine just the way I am.
Speaker B:And somebody will always say, you're not good enough anyway.
Speaker A:Always.
Speaker A:So, listen, thank you for spending so much time with me.
Speaker A:I appreciate this.
Speaker A:I really, really do.
Speaker A:And, yeah, I'll put something else out.
Speaker A:If you want to come back on, just let me know.
Speaker B:I will.
Speaker B:And that was actually call out to people.
Speaker B:People don't realize when you have a podcast that what you're actually missing is incredible conversations.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Like, I think people just say, like, choose me to be a podcast, Matt, so that I can talk about my business and myself.
Speaker B:No, actually intentionally want to have a conversation about something for the industry that the industry will actually learn something and get something back from.
Speaker B:If you have something you want to talk to Matt about, reach out to him and apply to be on his podcast and just tell him why you want to be on his podcast.
Speaker B:I saw his post and I text him and I was like, I don't agree with everything you said, and I'd like to play devil's advocate to that.
Speaker B:And he was like, I'd love that.
Speaker B:Because Matt has.
Speaker B:I was going to say, not the ego that would make you go, but you were humble enough to go, I just want to hear what you have to say and about it, because I, you know, podcasts are looking for content.
Speaker B:Stages are looking for content.
Speaker B:If you're an educator and you've created content and you want me to license it and help you sell it on a platform, you should probably DM me.
Speaker B:Like, I. I want this industry to thrive always, because it kills me that our industry struggles to make money and be sustainable in business.
Speaker B:People hate me for that.
Speaker B:People hate me because I teach people how to make money.
Speaker B:And I'm like, you know, you can be an artist and not get paid, or you can be an artist and get paid.
Speaker B:But I want to just say one thing.
Speaker B:You're just a photographer, man.
Speaker B:You don't cure cancer.
Speaker B:You're not a brain surgeon.
Speaker B:You're a photographer.
Speaker B:You take pretty pictures and you make people feel good and you capture events and you stop time for people, and it's very precious and it's a legacy.
Speaker B:But you're just a photographer, and you stop taking yourself so seriously.
Speaker B:If you want to make money and be sustainable, look at yourself as a business and look at yourself as a personal brand that offers photography and if you do that, then you never have to reinvent yourself because you're simply evolving your brand.
Speaker B:You never have to reinvent your products.
Speaker B:You just evolve your products, you evolve your audience, you evolve your income.
Speaker B:And the more valuable you can make yourself in this personal brand, selling all the things that you do, the more sustainable you are long term, the more you don't get stuck in shoots that you don't want to do anymore, or stuck doing jobs that are hard on the body.
Speaker B:Or I don't want to shoot weddings anymore, but I have to to make money.
Speaker B:Who said that I have to do this to make money?
Speaker B:You are a creative.
Speaker B:You get paid to create, my friend.
Speaker B:And if you feel stuck in your own creation, you are not at your fullest potential as an artist.
Speaker B:So I want to be a creator.
Speaker B:There's no competition in the creator room.
Speaker B:Do I get triggered when I see people who I think not qualified enough to be coaching advertise themselves as a coach?
Speaker B:Sometimes, yes.
Speaker B:And then I'm reminded, if they're a good coach, they'll still be there in a year.
Speaker B:And if they're not, they won't be.
Speaker B:And it's not my business to call people out.
Speaker B:It's my business to call people out from what they're stopping themselves from becoming.
Speaker B:You have the ability to be a personal brand, which means you have the ability to create products outside of photo that will sustain you and earn you good money.
Speaker B:I did.
Speaker B:I create digital products.
Speaker B:Products.
Speaker B:I'm going to say something that is going to probably upset a lot of photographers, but if I don't say it, you won't know.
Speaker B:In the last 15 years, I have created and sold $43 million worth of digital products with my name on them.
Speaker B:That is not the digital products that I helped curate with 38 other instructors.
Speaker B:This was like, this is my.
Speaker B:The last 15 years I have been an educator and I stopped being a photographer in my business.
Speaker B:Yes, I did.
Speaker B: So in: Speaker B:And I was done.
Speaker B:That was my 20 years.
Speaker B:At that point, I knew I could not go any further in that business model doing it.
Speaker B:I saw photographers on the stage in Australia.
Speaker B:It was Gerry Giannis first, and then I saw them at wppi.
Speaker B:And I knew in my soul that I wanted.
Speaker B:That I wanted to walk that path.
Speaker B:Now, people told me I wasn't good enough.
Speaker B:They told me I was unqualified.
Speaker B:They told me I was uneducated and they told me no.
Speaker B:But I followed my path anyway.
Speaker B:And I kept growing and I kept evolving and I evolved my personal brand from that day.
Speaker B:And since that day, I have continued to make money and coach and educate and build platforms and invest in businesses not owned by me and coach them.
Speaker B:And that is an extraordinary thing for somebody that walked out of high school when they're 15 years old and never got to even finish high school.
Speaker B:So, all industry rules aside, you are a personal brand and you are capable of creating whatever you want to create in this world.
Speaker B:An easy life, an artist life, an artist income, a creator's income, a great income, a podcast if you want it, a YouTube TV show if you want it.
Speaker B:Whatever you are capable of creating, if you have the goods and the energy and the enthusiasm to stick with it, you can create it.
Speaker B:If you can create a timeline to it, it's yours.
Speaker B:So instead, I want you to just as a photographer, I want you to start just asking yourself, what do I want?
Speaker B:What lights me up?
Speaker B:What products do I make?
Speaker B:What can I create?
Speaker B:And what do I have to become to be the personal brand at the center of my business?
Speaker B:Instead of looking for an identity that will also stop me from becoming anything else, that's my soapbox.
Speaker A:I so value you and your time and your insight.
Speaker A:Again, I just.
Speaker A:This means the world to me, and that's not hyperbolic.
Speaker A:I really do enjoy these conversations.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker A: it with and not Internet troll: Speaker A:So thank you again.
Speaker A:I will talk to you soon.
Speaker B:Okay, thanks, Matt.
Speaker A:All right.
