Ep. 053 - Karinda Kinsler: Why Money Mindset Matters

Matt Stagliano: 00:00:00

Let me ask you a question. What happens when you stop following the rules and start writing your own? In this episode of Generator, I talk with Corinda Kinsler.

She's an equine photographer, a business coach, and the author of the Unicorn. It's a definitive guide to building your photography business.

While she started by building her brand photographing horses, she also created a national movement by doing it her own way. I love this conversation because we focus on a lot of the intangibles and the emotions that we feel when we're trying to run our businesses.

We get into the mindset shifts that helped her raise her prices, why she ditched all of her email templates, and how she connects with clients in a deeper, more human way.

If you're struggling with money blocks or wondering how to scale your business, this conversation answers all, all of those questions and teaches you how to create clarity and develop momentum. I can't wait for you to hear it. So let's start the show right now with my guest, Kerinda Kinsler.

When last we met, or I should say the first time we met was at wppi, and we were at the WPPI has Got Talent. It was that thing in the Comedy Cellar where we were watching people present and I got to meet you and I got to see your book in hand.

I just wanted to say officially, welcome to Generator.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:01:47

Thanks for having me.

Matt Stagliano: 00:01:48

Yeah, my pleasure. So as soon. And I have your stickers that I got from you right over here. They're on my wall. So I've got the.

The stickers and the you are magical stickers. So thank you again for those. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been an interesting time in the photo industry, and I know you do a lot of coaching.

You have your photography business, you're an author.

We're going to talk about a ton of stuff here, but to just set the baseline, let's talk a little bit about your business, about equine photography, how you got into that, and how that's been a stepping stone to every other part of your business. Do you mind taking us back a little bit and going through that?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:02:29

Yeah. So I am a horse person. I grew up riding horses. I have an animal science degree.

And my last semester of college, I was like, what am I going to do with my life? I do not want to go back to college. Like, I don't want to go get a master's degree. I was like, I think I'll start a photography business.

That sounds logical. I had been playing with the camera. I Had worked for a livestock photographer that shot major livestock shows. And he was like, hey, come work for us.

I've seen a couple things you've posted online that you've taken with your camera. Come work for us, we'll train you.

So I went to work for them for a little bit and he kind of sold me a camera and was like, well, here you go, here's how you shoot a livestock show. And then I was like, I'm just going to start a business because this is way too hard, working 12 hour long days in an arena with cow poop.

So I started my business and I did what everyone does, which was weddings and eventually babies, because I had a mentor that was a newborn photographer. And I found that when you hire a mentor, you kind of end up in this weird group of doing what they do because you're around it a lot.

And then one day I woke up and was like, why am I photographing babies and horse and weddings? Why am I not photographing horses? This is what I love. And I literally built my equine photography brand overnight.

I was in Kentucky on a trip and I stayed up all night long. I built my equine photography website. I decided I was going to photograph 365 horses the next year.

And the next day I went and told everybody that I was going to photograph 365 horses. And everyone looked at me like I was crazy. My mentor at the time said, said, that's a stupid idea. But I did it.

I became really well known for equine photography and I got really good at equine photography because I knew, you know, it was my third time launching a brand. I had a wedding brand and a newborn brand. So the third time around launching a brand, it was like, okay, what can I do differently?

Well, I have to get as many people through the door as fast as I can. I have to build my name.

I knew I wanted to build my name all around the country so I could travel because my husband's job was kind of, we might end up in another state randomly. So I built this crazy brand literally overnight and it just took off. And now I'm kind of the go to person for equal mind photography.

Matt Stagliano: 00:04:36

I heard you talk about that previously and I also heard you talk about how you started in weddings and newborns. Right. Was there anything that you carried over from weddings and newborns? Was there anything you left behind and said never again?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:04:52

Yeah, I think I learned a lot in those two industries which were, you know, all, all photography genres have similarities, but there are differences in a lot of it. So, like, for example, with weddings, a big piece of my marketing, doing events, so we would do bridal open house and things like that.

So when I started in my equine photography business, I was like, well, I'm going to find events to do.

So it was natural that I set up and had a vendor booth and did events and I just kind of took little pieces of things and like, the way I dealt with my brides and communicated, like, when I would sit down with them and be like, here's what your wedding day could look like working with me. I do the same thing with my equine clients, walking them through the day of working with me. Right. But it's just a different genre.

I think there's a lot of similarities, but there's also a lot of differences because I always say, like, as a horse photographer, people don't wake up and think like, oh, I need to hire a photographer. They're just like, oh, people do that with their horses. I guess I could do that.

Whereas people are googling and searching and going on social media every day looking for wedding and newborn photographers. So actually, marketing has been the biggest difference between all of the genres that I have had to face.

And I have learned that it is a lot harder for equine and also pet photographers to market themselves.

Matt Stagliano: 00:06:03

Has there been a trick in the SEO game to bump yourself up on Google a little bit in equine photography? Or is it such like an empty niche that you're just kind of like, hey, I'm, I'm the horse photographer.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:06:15

Yeah. So honestly, there's not a whole lot of search traffic for the term equine photographer isn't.

So, like, the things are like, before, you see organic Google inquiries all the time when I do weddings and babies, and now it's like, nobody searches on Google.

I mean, there are people searching on Google, but most of the time, if they're searching on Google, Google, they already know me and are super aware of my brand. They're just trying to find my contact information.

Matt Stagliano: 00:06:38

Early on in my career, or I should say early on in my portrait career, I got commissioned to do some equine photography for a young teen. She was twelve or thirteen at the time. She was riding, getting her lessons and her mom wanted me to because it was a big passion of hers.

Her mom wanted me to come out and take photos. I don't mind riding horses. I've been on them, had a great time. But I wouldn't say I know a lot about horses. Right. And showing up.

I don't know the protocol. I don't know. And there's so much that goes into being around horses and all of the.

The protocol that you have to know so that these thousand, two thousand pound animals don't trample you or your gear. Right, right. So there's a lot that goes into just knowing the field that you're in.

Do you find that because of your background in riding horses and being around animals and livestock, do you find that that has just made it much easier to educate your clients and to talk at their level, or do you feel like you're still educating them about, hey, here's what's going to happen when a flash goes off or when I'm up in your horse's face. Do you have to educate them about that stuff or do they already generally know?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:07:55

Yeah, I think that they're all horse people are always very hyper aware of things that are happening. They're like, this is a. It's a very expensive animal, number one.

Matt Stagliano: 00:08:04

Yeah.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:08:04

Some of these horses are hundreds of thousands of dollars of horse. And, you know, you have to be super aware of those fears of a horse person, of like, what about this? What about this?

I don't want them to hurt themselves. It's expensive if they hurt themselves.

But also like, being confident around them and handling them, because if you don't know what you're doing around a horse and you're nervous they're going to call your bluff so fast that you're going to be sitting there like, what do I do with them? Um, and I'll share this little tip, because I get asked this a lot is people who are not horse people that want to do horse portrait sessions.

They're like, well, I want to photograph horses, but I'm not a horse person. And I always say, like, there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. Go call around to a barn and find a barn and say, hey, I'm a photographer.

I want to work with horses.

I would love to take some horsemanship lessons and learn how to groom a horse and brush a horse, and we'll lead them on the ground and be safe around them. So I understand what I'm dealing with when I'm with a client. Right. You don't have to ride them or anything.

You just need to be aware of the situation and how horses respond so you don't get yourself in a bad place.

Matt Stagliano: 00:09:09

As you started to progress from equine photography into coaching, I have to imagine that there were things you learned along the way both from being a student in mentoring and then also gaining all of this knowledge yourself, how did you start to mold that into what you wanted to do for other photographers and move into coaching?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:09:30

So what happened was, is I actually started my coaching business around the same time that I transitioned into horse photography full time. And I was going to, like, all these workshops. I was a workshopaholic.

And at night I'd be like, staying in this house with these strangers and they would be like, asking me all these questions about their business and they would be like, hey, Corinne, what about this? Or can you look at my pricing? What do you think about my pricing? And I just started helping people honestly.

And then these people would like, reach out to me months later and be like, hey, what you said to me or how you helped me with this, like, it was so helpful and I'm doing so much better. Thank you so much for like, talking me through that. And I started to realize that people.

There was something I was putting out that was helping people, right? And I started feeling like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.

And, and I'll say this time and time again, I love being a photographer, but I believe I was put on this earth to help people with their businesses. And as easy it is to make money and run my photography business, it is hard being a business coach.

Not because it's hard to help people, but because it's hard to run a coaching business, to be honest with you.

But the reason I keep going at it is because knowing that you help change people's lives and having people that are, like, if I would not have had that 30 minute conversation with you that changed the trajectory of my business, I don't know where I'd be today. And that is so powerful.

And just knowing that, like, people are able to take the things I share with them and make money and do what they love for a living and not have to feel like they're starving artists anymore is the coolest thing.

Matt Stagliano: 00:10:59

We all hit this point as photographers where maybe we have our business and then we hit a block, right? We've kind of hit the ceiling as far as we can go.

And so we get into conversations with people that are doing it, at least on the outside, better than us, what we see as success, right? Was there something in those early conversations where you're helping people for free and just guiding them through?

Was there a common question that you heard a lot that they were coming to you for? Was it money? Was it technique? Was it crap? What was the thing that you heard most often, you're like, you know what?

I can really help some people here.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:11:35

I think the thing I heard the most often was, I'm not making money. And then I think I was at that cusp where I had finally, like, hit the place of, oh, I'm actually making money now. And I was like, you can do this.

Like, if I can do this, you can do this.

But what I found was that whenever I went from that place of being stuck in my business and not making money to, like, actually breaking through that place and being really profitable, I started looking for help outside of the photography industry. So I started hiring coaches that were, like, marketing experts and were in different industries, as weird as that sounds.

Like I remember learning from somebody that they taught me using a restaurant menu, like, here's how restaurants put together a menu. And I learned so much about pricing just by learning about how a restaurant puts together a menu, which is totally random.

But when I started learning from people in different industries and not just listening to photographers anymore, my depth of knowledge and understanding of business was so much deeper. And then I would have conversations with people in the photography world and they would be like, I don't understand this. Everyone's telling me this.

And I would say, why are they telling you that? Do you know? And they'd be like, no, I don't know why. I just know everyone says, you should do this. And I was like, well, that's the problem.

Let's look at why we need to do these things and then let's look at does it actually work for you? And then let's put it into your business, because it is so frustrating to get business advice. And you're going to, why doesn't this work for me?

I see it working for so and so and so and so, but I must be a failure because it's not working for me. Well, it's not working for you because you're not those people.

And that's where that, like, deeper grasp of the knowledge comes into play, because when you understand it, you can make it work for you.

Matt Stagliano: 00:13:18

You're now the second person in a few weeks to tell me photographers need to go outside the photography industry to find good coaching. The first was Josh Beaton, who you might have met out in Vegas as well, and he said exactly the same thing.

While there are amazing mentors and coaches in the photography world, sometimes you need that outside perspective, that unbiased perspective to say, no, this is how business works, not photography. This is how business works. And you've Often said that you want photographers to step into this role of CEO.

So what does that mean to you and how do they get there to do that?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:14:00

Yeah. So I think that being a CEO, well, first of all, I think as photographers, we're just like, hey, I'm a photographer, I'm an artist.

Running a business sucks, right?

Matt Stagliano: 00:14:10

Yeah, pretty much.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:14:11

As long as we have that mentality about business, we're going to a not enjoy it and also be avoided because we don't enjoy it. Right. So when we want to avoid something because we don't enjoy it, it's normally because we don't understand it.

So fear and not wanting to deal with things comes from a lack of understanding. So whenever you start to understand things and really build things on your own, they become less scary.

So it's like if I've never touched a snake and I don't know anything about snakes, of course I don't want to touch a snake. If somebody's like, hey, I have a pet snake, isn't it so cute? I'm going to be like, hell no. I don't know anything about snakes.

They could rough around my neck and kill me tomorrow right now, could it? It's the same thing. Like, we're treating our business, which is a necessity, like a snake that we've never touched before, know nothing about.

We think it's going to kill us when it's not. For example, pricing. Pricing is the number one thing, right. That I see this in.

How many of us have been told by a mentor or given a price list or bought a price guide that someone's like, hey, here's the pricing you should use in your business. And we're like, okay, I guess I'll use this price list. And then we use it for a while and we're like, this sucks. I don't like it.

I'm not making money. Let me go find the next best price list or the next best product guide.

We go, we find the next mentor, we take the next, plop it into our business, then a year down the road, we're in the same place again.

But if you understood it and you were able to take it and make it work for you or build it yourself without even taking the template or the priceless is the ones that you should use.

I think that's the biggest fallacy right now in the photography industry is taking the template or the thing someone says, do this and putting it into your business instead. You should build it from the ground up and then you'll feel good about it and then you can fix it when it breaks.

Matt Stagliano: 00:15:55

There are so many variables that go into running a solo business. There are certain rules that you probably should follow. There are some rules that you are more than allowed to break. What's the rule?

The quote unquote rule that you see photographers following that you wish they wouldn't?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:16:18

Oh, you know, I think the thing that I see photographers doing the most and I'm like, can you just stop? Is sending emails to our clients. Like sending all these emails and information. Overload of emails and prep lists and price guys and all this crap.

And like no one reads it. Nobody pays attention to it.

The reason your clients aren't spending money or buying and they're still confused even though you sent them all of these great things that you spent all this time putting together is because they don't read it. Just have conversations with your clients.

I would say go back to the good old days when you just had conversations with people like, screw technology, screw email, screw the prep guides, get rid of all of it and just try talking to your clients and stop depending on all of those other things because it really doesn't make that big of a difference.

Matt Stagliano: 00:17:01

Do you do much email communication or do you prefer phone calls? Face to face conversations with your clients?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:17:08

I send one email to my clients manually and then there's a couple reminders that go out.

The only email I send to my clients is after their session happens when it's time for them to schedule their reveal and then they get automated reminders. I do not email my clients hardly at all. Most of the time I just call them or I'm like, hey, we need to hop on a meeting. Do you have time?

Here's my schedule. And I use like calendly for that type of stuff too. But I do not email clients. I People don't read email.

Matt Stagliano: 00:17:33

Sucks following those rules, right? I spent a ton of time crafting these emails that are just pure education. And here's my makeup guide. And here's what's going to happen at your shoot.

And while they weren't overly flowery, right. I wasn't trying to sell some version of this session that was never going to happen. It was purely educational content. Here's what to expect, right?

However, no matter how good, how clear, how many guides I would send out, it's usually one or two before the session and then a couple after the session. I try not to overload, but. But I also like to say, hey, I sent this to you. It's not like you didn't Get a chance to see it.

That being said, you're right. No one reads anything right. No one reads anything at all.

I found a good power in video of putting things on my website to give people a little bit of that information. Do you use any sort of video or offline learning outside of your, you know, your few phone calls?

Do you do any of that to educate potential clients that might visit your website?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:18:43

Not really. I mean, in my marketing, I try to talk about the experience, the process, all that stuff a lot.

So that way, when they come to me, they're already aware of what's happening, the situation, what to expect. I'm going to spend money, I'm going to buy wall art. But I really don't like, literally, I have an info call with my clients.

I have a planning call most of the time, not all the time, honestly. And then I show up at their session.

I don't do a whole lot, but I'm very strategic in the way I say things, and I'm strategic in the way I ask questions in those conversations.

Because what I've learned, and I kind of adopted this rule from the marketing space, is the average salesperson has to ask for the sale eight times to get to a yes.

So that means someone has to be presented with an opportunity or hear something eight times to be able to get comfortable enough to understand it, to say yes.

So I've kind of used this rule in my business that anything I want my clients to know, I talk about it or ask the question about it at least eight different times. In all reality, I would say more like 15 times if I want to make sure clients know it.

Because if you consider you can say something to somebody 10 times and they don't hear half of it. So if you overdo it and then you forget a couple of the pieces along the way, no big deal, Right.

You still are guaranteed that your client understands what's happening. So I think over preparing in conversations in very strategic. In a very strategic manner. That's really what it's about.

Matt Stagliano: 00:20:07

Give me an example of that. Give me a. Give me one part of your process.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:20:11

Right.

Matt Stagliano: 00:20:11

Because I don't want to expose your own process. People can buy the book. Right.

But like, what's one thing that you feel like you have to repeat to clients over and over and over to get them towards that sale?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:20:21

Yeah. So I'll talk. I'll use wall art as an example.

Matt Stagliano: 00:20:23

Sure.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:20:24

Perfect. And I mentioned, like, it's about the way you say things, right?

Because you can say one wrong word and it completely changes the meaning of your statement. Or you can ask the question the wrong way. So my favorite example that I think everybody can relate to is, okay, so if you're my client, Matt.

Hey, Matt, what do you want to do with your pictures?

Matt Stagliano: 00:20:41

I don't really know yet. I guess get something, I guess. Can you print them, like. Or should I get something for the wall? What do you think I should do?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:20:50

Okay, so that's what most people ask. They say, what do you want to do with your pictures? Your clients, what do you want to do with your portraits? And your client's like, I don't know.

Okay, if instead I say, hey, Matt, what do you want to do with your portraits? Where do you want to display them in your home? What are you going to say now?

Matt Stagliano: 00:21:05

Oh, I think this would look great in the living room. Or this would be great in my daughter's room because she's the one that rides the horse all the time. I'd love to have that in her bedroom.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:21:14

You're like a sore client now. Most clients would be like, maybe I haven't thought about that. Okay, now let's take this a step further, okay? Because we. We.

The first way wasn't wrong. The second way wasn't wrong. It was almost there. Tell me what you want to do with your portraits.

What if we did a portrait of you with all of your animals, and we made sure that each one of them was showcasing their quirky personality, because I know they're all so different and unique, and it was just you sitting on a big leather sofa with each of your animals around you over your sofa. Or I have another idea. What if we did a series of portraits, Each of your animals, heads as squares down the hallway leading to your bedroom.

So it's the last thing you saw at night when you were going to bed, and the first thing you saw in the morning when you woke up?

Also, I'm thinking, what if we do a portrait of your dog in the entryway where he's running at the camera with a stick in his mouth through the water, and it just like, absolutely makes you laugh and smile every time you see it. And it's the first thing that people see when they come into your home.

Matt Stagliano: 00:22:08

I love how you're showing people what success looks like. I love how you're showing people how to paint the image in their mind of what this looks like for the product that is so great.

And the fact is, doing it to me, I was just thinking, I'm like, God, I don't have A picture of my dog when I walk in the house, I'm like, I should get a picture of that.

I love the fact that as you're doing that, and I don't want to say that this is a technique that everyone should use, but you weren't giving me a chance to think about it, to say no. You kept hyping me up with, oh, here's something else we can do. Oh, here's something else we can do. Oh, here's something else we can do.

And there was three out of those 15 times that I already imagined me buying wall art, right?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:22:55

And so the thing is, I always say, like, our clients don't know what they don't know. So sometimes we have to ask questions with a bit of leaning towards what we want them to say.

But I couldn't have had that conversation unless I got to know my client first, right?

So if I talked to my client and I knew they had eight dogs, or if I knew that they like taking their dog in a hike and their dog is their child, or if I knew that they have a horse and a snake and all these weird things, all these weird, random animals, right? And I got to know them first, and I listened to the things that they said.

I listened to the fact that they said each one of their animals is super weird and quirky in their own way, or their dog loves to pick up sticks and run through the water. Those are things that I take from the conversation piece that I have with my client and then embed into that question.

And those are things that you cannot get across unless you have a conversation and get to know a person first. Then you make the recommendation, right? And your clients want to feel like you hear them and you see them and you get them.

And just by taking little nuances of what they say when you're getting to know them and embedding that into the idea of the experience changes everything. And they're not going to go to anyone else. No one else took that time to get to know them.

Matt Stagliano: 00:24:03

So it's that part of the consultation that a lot of us take for granted because we're so focused on the sale of all right.

I'm feeling them out to see how much money they have and how much they might be able to instead of just actively listening and being curious about the person sitting in front of you. It's something that I've learned, been fortunate enough to learn through interviews like this over the past 20 years.

Understanding and being curious about the person in front of me, making no expectations about what they may or may not do, but finding ways to enhance their life. They came to me for a reason. They came to you for a reason. How can we best serve them? So that active listening part is really big. Now.

A few minutes ago, you talked about a lot of photographers having a ton of fear going into some of these conversations. Did you have, or I should say, what was your biggest fear?

Getting into coaching, or was there a fear that you had to get over in your business that you now look back and say, no, it wasn't that big of a deal?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:25:11

Yeah, I think in my portrait business, I. I really went through that transformation in my portrait business. Hard fork. And then I haven't had to deal with it, my coaching business as much.

But in my portrait business, I would not take credit cards for my clients because I felt like if I took a credit card from a client, and this is back when I did weddings and newborns, I felt like if I was taking a credit card from a client, they were going into debt for me. And. Right. Like, how weird is that?

That I was like, no, you have to write me a check or give me cash because I don't want a credit card because I don't want people going into debt for my photos. Right. Yeah. And I felt really, really slimy every time I had to ask for money. Like, I feel like they'd be like, I want a canvas.

And I'm like, are you sure you want to canvas? That's really expensive. How about we get a print instead?

And I was just literally subconsciously putting off my fear of taking people's money because I didn't want people to be in financial distress because of me and turning money away from my own pocketbook. And so I worked with a money mindset coach. I remember driving down the road on the way to the barn, and I was going to ride.

And I remember it was just like this huge epiphany that hit me. And I just had this moment where I thought to myself, I am afraid of my client's money. How stupid is this?

And I was like, I need somebody to help me get over this. And I googled money mindset coach and I hire. I set up a call with, like, one of the first people that popped up on Google.

And hiring that mindset coach, her name is Christina Bold, absolutely changed everything because I realized how much the way I was raised, the things I had growing up, watching my parents handle their money, trying to struggle as a young adult figuring out money and finances, I was impacting my ability to make money because I felt like.

Because I had these weird feelings, and I was trying to be budget conscious, I was like, thanks, Dave Ramsey, for convincing me that I shouldn't spend money on anything. And then thinking my clients shouldn't spend money on anything either, and screwed me up in my business hardcore.

And once I got through that hurdle, it took the ceiling off my client's bend, and I no longer felt anxious or like, oh, I have to say, a total of money. It was just like, yeah, your order's $7,600. Where's your credit card? Right before it was like, your total is.

And I'd, like, write it down on a piece of paper and show it to them, because I didn't want to say it. So that was huge for me.

And then I think when I started going through as a business coach and helping photographers, what I realized was that I could give somebody the best business advice in the world, but unless I dealt with their mindset, too, the best business advice in the world was going to get them nowhere, because they would always be stuck in their own way.

Matt Stagliano: 00:27:41

Was that the. The major mindset shift that you had that really increased your pricing and your selling?

Once you got over that hurdle, did things really start to shift for you?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:27:52

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think. I didn't realize that I was stopping myself, and I think it was, like realizing that I was getting in my own way and I needed to stop it.

And then learning those mindset tools to shift my mindset and to stop myself when I went into that place. And also just be like, this doesn't have to be hard.

I am making this hard on myself because I'm choosing to hold on to some story that I'm telling myself, which is not true. And people do want to spend money with me, and people are excited to spend thousands of dollars with me.

And people can spend as much money on portraits as they could a car, and that's cool. If they want to do that, that's cool. It's a little crazy to me, but that's cool if you want to do it.

And I always like to say, I am not in control of my client's pocketbook. And this is something I said on a summit a few years ago when I was teaching, and people loved that. They were like, oh, my gosh.

That's what I needed to hear. I am not in control of my client's pocketbook. And I wouldn't want someone else being worried about what I was spending my money on.

So why am I worried what my Clients are spending their money on.

Matt Stagliano: 00:28:50

What do you think? Photographers or any solopreneur, it doesn't matter if you're a photographer. What do you think most creatives misunderstand about money?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:29:01

I think most creatives have this fear of subconsciously really making a lot of money. Because I think, I think a lot of creatives don't come from a whole lot. I think a lot of creatives come from that starving artist's life.

And then there's this weird subconscious fear that if you make a lot of money, you're going to become a terrible person or you know, you're going to outgrow your friends and your family and it's people are going to look at you differently. And I think that is something that really is deep down inside a lot of artists that nobody really wants to admit or talk about, but it is so true.

We also kind of tend to push away from clients that are super wealthy sometimes on that same note, because we feel like when we're dealing with really wealthy people that they're bad people to deal with.

Matt Stagliano: 00:29:48

Right.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:29:49

And there's this weird like thing that goes back and forth in a lot of people. And even like I didn't. I grew up in a very well off family. We did not have to want for anything. We were fine.

And I still grew up with these money mindset issues, which is wild to think about.

Like, I didn't come from that place, but then everything kind of got ripped out from underneath me when I was in high school and my parents divorced and then my mom and I had nothing. So I went from having everything in the world to having nothing. And I lived both of those lives. So I feel both sides of that.

And there was that part of me growing up that had those weird feelers, fear, peers, I can't talk. And the part of me is an adult learning how to make it. That also impacted that.

Matt Stagliano: 00:30:30

Was there anything else that came out of those years of having a radical shift in lifestyle that you think also contributed to either you becoming a creative or to creating some obstacles that you couldn't get over in your business besides the money?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:30:48

Yeah. Okay, so this is really interesting. I don't think I'm a creative person. I cried. Okay, this is bad.

I cried in high school my senior year when I had to take art class.

I walked into art class and I looked at the teacher and I was like, I just want you to know I can't draw a stick figure and this is going to be terrible. And you don't even know what you're dealing with. But I should not be in this class.

And here I am as a creative, as an adult, still thinking kind of like not very creative. That's a whole other story. So it's funny that I ended up in this industry to begin with. I think something that I saw was my.

When we had all that happen, my mom went back to college when she was in her. Let's say my mom was 56 and she went back to college, and I watched my mom work really, really hard to get through college.

And I watched my mom, who literally pecked on a computer, barely knew how to use a computer, type college papers. And watching her work so hard was really important, I think, in my life.

And seeing somebody who fought so hard to just be able to survive and do something for her family, and I think that really shaped how I worked in my business when I started my business. Another thing that also kind of shaped it is growing up, I watched my dad work for free a lot for people.

My dad was an attorney, and he worked for people for free because he felt bad for them and he wanted to help them. I watched him work for free so much that I, as an adult, said, I'm not going to do what he did.

I am not going to spend my time and energy working for free for people while my family sits at home and sacrifices being away from me. So that's also, I think, part of my reason why I'm like, don't work for free. Like, it's not worth it.

You don't want your family and your kids growing up saying, why is mom or why is dad never home? And it's because you're out working for free for people that you feel bad for. That's been really important for me, I think.

And then on the same note of this is when you work in your paid well, then you can give back to people in ways that you never imagined in bigger ways. So that's how I've taken my childhood trauma and organizes this.

Matt Stagliano: 00:32:54

Yeah, I think what you mentioned there is common for so many creatives, insofar as there's this progression from, all right, we're going to be a creative. We have to charge for our product or our art.

I don't really have great money mindset, so I'm going to set my prices really low, and then when I get any pushback on that pricing, I'm going to drop it even lower or work for free because you so desperately want that affirmation as an artist that your work is good. So you're willing to give it away and you're not thinking about, like, you just said, what could I do if I had more money?

What else could I do for this person? Right. Instead of, this is the one thing I can do, what are the other possibilities that I have at my disposal? How could I grow my business?

So my question for you is, as creatives go from that I am just a creative to now I am going to own a creative business. Is money the biggest shift that they have to make, or is there something else there that they need to consider before starting a business?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:34:04

Yeah, I think become as good of a business owner as you are a photographer. Right? It's like, how much time do we spend learning our craft? How much time do we actually spend learning business and learning our craft?

We're learning one thing, right? When we're learning business, we're learning how to be a marketer. We're learning how to be all of these.

A bookkeeper, you know, a cfo, all these things. So there's actually a lot more skills that we have to learn on the business side.

So I would say it takes about five to ten times more time invested in learning in the business side than it does the creative side.

Also, this is kind of cynical to say, but if you treat it like your job, if you treat your business like a job instead of treating it like it's your baby, if you say, if my boss was telling me I need to go out and find five clients this month or else I'm fired, you would go find five clients for your boss. But as a photographer, if we're like, oh, I need to find five clients, I can't pay my bills. Oh, what am I gonna do? I'll go shoot some free sessions.

That sounds like a great idea. You would never do that if you had a boss and this was your real job. So I think sometimes that's kind of been helpful.

Tip I've used with some people is treat this like, I'm your business coach. I am telling you to do this thing. But if your boss was telling you to do this and your job was on the line, you would go do it, wouldn't you?

And they're like, of course. So why are you letting yourself down and not doing it for yourself?

Matt Stagliano: 00:35:27

It's such a great point.

My mind is going a million miles an hour because I'm thinking through all of these photographers that I get a chance to talk to some that struggle, some that are very successful. And you made a linkage between caring about your business as Much as you care about your craft.

And it's very interesting as you watch new people or people that are new to photography that think they need to start a business, the ability in their craft and their ability in business are pretty parallel, right? And as you get better as a photographer, you realize all the other things you need to do in your business.

And so you, the experience is commensurate and you start to get better at both things at the same time. I was fortunate that I came from a business background, but that affects me too much now and I probably don't do as much creatively.

I'm very much like you. I feel like I'm more of a technician than an artist. And you know, I press a button and sometimes the pictures come out pretty good.

But I'm generally focused on selling a product.

As you talk to photographers, as you were developing this book, as you start to develop all of these ideas and you want to put them to paper, can you talk me through the outline of how you put this entire coaching program book? Depth of knowledge in a cohesive package. Right. So if I'm a photographer and I'm coming to you, what can I expect? Where do we start?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:37:06

Before I had a child and we could go to the bookstore in peace and enjoy browsing books at the bookstore, my husband and I would always go to the bookstore. And I was pregnant. So this was six years ago. Well, five years ago. I can't even keep track of the years. Five years though.

I remember going to the bookstore while I was pregnant and looking through the books and I just kept. I just remember thinking like, all of these business books teach the same, like five or six topics.

There's five or six topics that everyone teaches, but you have to read all these different books and you have to like take all these different pieces and try to put it together in one cohesive thing. And I just thought, why hasn't anybody just like written the book?

That's like all of these five or six topics that everyone else talks about in one clear and cohesive way of like, this is actually what you need to know about this thing. And I said someone, and I was laughing and I just said someone should write the Unicorn of Books.

And I took out my phone and I wrote down the Unicorn of books. And we were driving home that day, like a 45 minute drive home, and I wrote an outline and it said the Unicorn of business Books.

And it was just going to be a business book, honestly.

And I typed out all the topics I was going to write about and I thought to myself, if I would have just had one book that someone handed me and said, here's what you need to know to be a business owner. This is what I wish somebody would hand it to me and, like, slap me across the face and then, like, read this. Really, this is important.

And so I think those topics is, like, mindset.

Mindset's important, and I believe that mindset search with everything, and no one wants to hear this, that they have to start with mindset, and it sucks and it's messy and. And you might cry. It's a part of life. So mindset comes first. Then money and marketing and client experience and sales.

All of those things that just are basic business fundamentals, that no matter what kind of business you're in, they matter. I ended up gearing the book towards photographers because I was a little bit easier to write about as a photographer.

Matt Stagliano: 00:38:54

Sure.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:38:54

But it's those general topics that really everybody needs to understand. Everybody needs to understand their mindset. Everyone needs to understand money and how money flows in a business.

My goodness, everyone should know if I make a dollar, they should know where every penny goes. They should know how much money they need to make to pay themselves well, because most of us don't for a long time until we realize we're broke.

They should understand how to deal with clients, how to take clients through an experience to get them where you need them to be without feeling like you're having to twist their arm or sell them things to just feel natural. They need to understand pricing. They need to understand marketing.

And there's really basic flavors, fundamental theories and techniques and research that goes into all of those topics.

But nobody's really ever said, like, hey, here's the exact what you need to know, and here's the why you need to know it, which is what's missing so much. So it's a lot of the why in the background.

Matt Stagliano: 00:39:45

As someone that is actively writing a book, what were some of the things.

As you developed this outline and you started to really dive in and write this book, what were some of the things that popped out of you that you were like, wow, I hadn't thought about this. This is a great angle.

Were there a lot of those moments where you're like, ooh, I can add this in, I can add this in, and how do you wrangle it down to. Here's the core information right before we get into volume two of the unicorn book.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:40:16

Right. So I think, like, I had that outline in my phone for years, and just randomly, I would Just go in and just like type random ideas in there.

And then one night I was like, I need to market my coaching business more. And then I was like, how am I going to market my coaching business? Oh, get a booth at Imaging. Because that's what I do in my portrait.

I film at events and I have booths and events. So I decided I was going to get a booth at Imaging. And I was like, I have nothing to sell other than my coaching program.

That's like a high end, high dollar intensive coaching program. And I was like, I have more clips in my phone. I should really just write that book. And I sat down and in three months we busted out that book.

And we sat down and just like the end of the year, the last night of the year, my husband and I sat on the sofa and I was like, this is the last time we're proofreading this thing. I am done with it after this. Every time I would proofread it, I'd add like 10 more pages to it. So I was like, we're done. And we really.

The idea and most of the knowledge was stuff that I had in my brain. It just needed to be flushed out with real research.

And so like a lot of the mindset stuff was fun because I got to go back and like actually dig into the research and the studies and the science behind it and try to get more scientific into it because so many people push back and say like, oh, that mindset stuff is just a bunch of woo woo. And I'm like, no it's not. There's science here. And my husband, funny enough, he actually got his master's degree four, five years.

Four years ago he got his master's in engineering management.

And they had a residency week and the entire week of residency week, which was their in person week, their lead professor taught them mindset and emotional emotion and made them write these like ooey gooey papers about their past.

And he called me after the first day and he's like, so all this mindset stuff you've been doing, did you know there's actually science behind all of it? And I was like, yeah, I've been trying to tell you this. Holy crap, this is crazy.

So my husband actually he has a little section in the first chapter about mindset, about his experience and being a doubt or about it all and then learning the original science behind it.

Matt Stagliano: 00:42:14

All of this knowledge evolves over time. We learn more, we get more experience, we get more wisdom.

What have been some of the things that as soon as you started Printing the book, you were like, well, I'm going to have to do an amendment with this. Not saying that the knowledge isn't good, but, oh, here's more context. Do you.

Are you planning on a, on a follow up or is this part of the coaching where they can have the book as a base foundation and then you fine tune for each student?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:42:45

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing about the book is I tried to make sure it was very like factual based in things that have been around for a long time. It wasn't just like anecdotal, this seems to be working for now stuff because I knew that over time things change. Right.

So eventually I'd like to rewrite a version of it that's general for general business owners. But like I, it has a lot of good stuff. I ran into a girl at imaging this year.

It was my second year back at Imaging one year after we released the book, and she stopped me in the hall and she goes, oh my gosh, you're the girl with the book. And I was like, yeah. And she goes, I have read your book so many times. She goes, can I show you something? And I'm like, sure.

She pulls up her notes in her phone and she literally scrolls and scrolls. She does.

Every time I read it, I take more notes and she just has a note in her phone that just keeps going and going over all the stuff she's taken out of the book. And she's like, this has been so freaking helpful. And you know, that was the purpose of it.

Like, I get that not everybody can afford to go hire a business coach. I get that there's only so much you can learn just listening to random pieces of podcasts and putting all these random pieces together.

So this was my, like, if I can help as many people as possible with their business in a cohesive manner, like, this is it. This is my giving back. I put a lot of work into this. Books don't necessarily make you money. They cost a lot of money to do. And that's fine.

But this is my way that if I can get this in as many people's hands as possible and help them and have people come and say, even I read one thing in your book that completely changed the way I look at my business, then that makes it worth it.

Matt Stagliano: 00:44:11

Is there any difference in selling books to selling portraits of horses?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:44:16

Oh, yes. I am so good at selling in my portrait business. I am really bad at selling in my coaching business. It's so funny. I teach people sales.

I know everything about sales. Inside out. But teaching in my coaching business or selling in my coaching business is hard. I am really bad at tooting my own horn.

So I had a coaching client that came and she helped me sell books last year at imaging. And she'd be like, people would come be like, this girl wrote a freaking book. Isn't that amazing? It's so good. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

You have to buy it. And I'm just like, here's my book if you want it. That's great. She's like, corinda, what's wrong with you?

And I'm like, I know it's different, but, you know, the thing I always say is that my coaching business keeps me. It keeps me on ground level, knowing what my portrait coaching clients are going through. Right. Because when they say, hey, I had a.

This conversation with a client or I had this situation happen in my portrait business, yes. I don't have those situations as much in my portrait business, but in my coaching business, I still feel those growing pains. So I get it.

And I'm like, my coaching business keeps me on the same. Like, I'm still growing, I'm still learning. I'm still doing all the things that y' all are doing in your portrait business.

And I feel for you because it never ends in some way a shape.

Matt Stagliano: 00:45:29

There's that. That empathy. You know what it's like to go through it. And one of the things that you've.

You've mentioned a few times, and I just heard it in the statement you made. Photographers often have a hard time selling whatever product they have because they're afraid of feeling pushy.

And I kind of heard you that saying, like, here's a book. I don't want to be pushy, but just maybe you might like this. Right? Right. How do you teach photographers to get over that? How do you teach them to.

You know what? Sometimes you got to be pushy.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:45:59

Yeah. So I don't think you have to be pushy when you're selling your portraits.

I think the key is getting to know the person, getting to know what they value, and then showing them how this thing that you're creating has such a deeper meaning to them and such a deeper value to them that they can't resist it. Right. It's the thing that they didn't know they needed until you told them they needed it.

It's that portrait of them over their sofa with all of their crazy animals.

It's those series of portraits that make them smile at night before they go to bed that they didn't realize that they needed in their life, but it has such a value to them once you explain it to them, that there's no longer a selling component of it. Which I know sounds crazy because yes, there is some selling, but selling can be done in a natural, nice way. There does not have to be negotiations.

There does not have to be a. If you buy this today, yeah, I'll give you this. If you don't buy it today, I'm taking it away though. That doesn't have to be a part of it.

And I think there's such a toxic way in the photography world that this is the way it has to be done when it's not. It does not have to be like that.

Matt Stagliano: 00:47:08

There is certainly, you know, there are techniques to create a scarcity mindset. Right. That fear of missing out. Oh, this, this sale is only going on for a few more days. You don't want to miss out.

And while I understand it, sometimes it can feel really slimy because when you see it, you might think, oh, well, maybe I only have a couple days left to get this. I'll think about it. But when you've now received your 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th email about time is ending.

6 hours, 5 hours, 4 hours now you start to be like, I just don't see the value in anymore. So being able to show someone value is an amazing way to sell without being salesy.

Value is big in the products, in talking to your clients, but self value is a whole different package.

Have you noticed that as you've changed your selling techniques, as you've gotten better at business, that there's been a shift in your own self value?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:48:08

Yeah, I would say, like, I've kind of had to take on this Persona in my portrait business. Like, kind of a big deal. Don't you know who you're working with? You know, like, fake it a little bit. In the beginning. I remember being at a wedding.

This is a really bad story.

We were at a wedding one night and this was when I shot weddings, and it was a friend's wedding and I'd been drinking a little bit and I went up to the bar to get a drink and the bartender goes, you're Corinda, the wedding photographer. And I was like, oh, she knows who I am. And the rest of the day I was like, oh my God, like, somebody knows who I am. They recognized me.

Isn't that crazy? But I had, I think I had to have that moment a long time to like. And my husband met Karinda.

You're kind of a Like what you do and people know you, you're doing good, you're. It's kind of a big deal to like, realize, like, oh, wow, I have built something. I have. I do have that.

It took that kind of external validation, I think. But the thing is, so many photographers don't think they're worth it, right? And they say, like, my work isn't good enough.

I can't charge those prices. My clients won't spend that much because I'm not as good as Matt, or I'm not as good as you are. Have you seen my work?

And you look at my photos and tell me if they're worth charging thousands of dollars for a piece of art? And I always say this. I always say, I'm not going to look at your work until after I get to know you.

Because I don't want to judge anyone based on their work. I want to talk to a person for as a business owner to another business owner. And I want to help them learn what about a profitable businesses.

And what I always say is price yourself profitably. Not based on your work, not based on how much you think you are, not how long you've been in business.

And your work's going to get better real fast if your work sucks and you can't produce quality work to sell. So it's a lot easier to like, say, this is business and I'm going to price myself as a business and my work might be here right now.

So clients might buy less images, clients might buy smaller images.

Clients, you know, aren't going to buy a 40 by 60 when your work's mediocre, but as your work gets better, you'll sell more images, you'll sell bigger images and your sales go up. But you never had to change your pricing.

So you don't have to have this, like, vicious cycle of re redoing your pricing constantly and raising it and then have a client come back three years later and go, why is it much cheaper three years ago? Well, I was raising my pricing as I got better.

No, just set your pricing where it needs to be and then become a better photographer to be able to create the work themselves.

Matt Stagliano: 00:50:28

Amen, sister. All right, what's a moment with any of your students that really stuck with you?

I'm sure there's a bunch, but can you give us an example of a moment that you're working with a student and it really either changed your approach or really changed their approach overall?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:50:47

Yeah. So one of my coaching clients, when she first started working with me, her and her friend did like a group, like a coaching thing with me together.

Matt Stagliano: 00:50:54

Sure.

Karinda Kinsler: 00:50:55

And they admitted at the end, they said after the first coaching call, we thought you were crazy. Really. They're like, oh my gosh, we have screwed up. We wasted all this money. Oh, crap, we can't cut our money back.

We better just show up and do these calls. And by the end, they were believers and they understood it.

But something that really, really stuck with me that she said, one of the girls said, was, I realized that in order to grow as a business, I had to grow as a person first. And I think finally hearing somebody verbalize, like, I didn't want to have to deal with myself.

And you were telling me I had to, but then it clicked that I had to do it was so incredibly important. And I always used what she said to me. You have to grow as a person first.

And the thing is, is that as a business coach, like, the advice I give every person is different, honestly.

Like, yes, there's basic business fundamentals, but as a person who cares about people, I have to get to know you and I have to understand your heart and soul and who you are and what you believe and, you know, all the good, the bad and the ugly about you to be able to give you advice.

Because if you're a single guy who, you know, just wants to live in a van and travel the world versus a mom who has a special needs child at home, I can't tell you the same thing. I can't give you the same advice. And so what I always say is, like, be vulnerable as a person.

Share your heart and soul with whoever's helping you, whoever's talking to you about your business. Find somebody that cares about your situation and cares about helping you grow as a person through your business growth. Because they go hand in hand.

Like, yes, we're business owners, yes, we're photographers, but we are people first. And that is the most important piece of all of this.

Matt Stagliano: 00:52:30

As being a person, you're very vocal about the dogma in the photo industry and coaching in general. In the education space, where do you see the education space specifically in the photo world, where do you see that going in the future?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:52:46

I honestly think that people going forward are going to want and need more people in coaching. I think that people like, anybody can make a course, you can make a course in chat GPT. Like no big deal, right? Anybody can make a course.

But courses only take people so far.

And I think in the world of everything evolving and being more automated, more technology based people need people helping them more than anything else. And people need people that understand them and get them.

And so personally, for me, I think the biggest roadblock I would run into when I was learning business is you'd buy a course and then you'd get this course and you'd watch it and you'd be like, well, that doesn't make sense. But I don't get any help with it and I can't talk to this person because they're a rock star photographer and they don't help me.

And then you just close your computer and you forget that you ever bought the course or you don't complete it. So I think that having somebody there to actually guide you when you get stuck and hold your hand and be like, hey, you've got this.

And also give you the kick in the butt when you need it, because we all need a good kick in the butt. And somebody be like, why the hell aren't you doing this? Go do the dang thing. I know you can do it. I know you know what you're doing.

You just have to go do it. I think people are going to need more of that because I think that's what's missing in the world right now, honestly.

I mean, anywhere you go, you don't get people, you get a chatbot or you get something else. I think people coming back into it's going to be really valuable.

Matt Stagliano: 00:54:11

It's something that I've noticed myself over the past couple of years as there's been such a proliferation of coaching and as I do have some of my own students.

I'm very conscious of like you trying to tailor the curriculum to the person in front of me rather than saying, just follow this course, just watch my course. Because they don't get the context and the applicability to their particular situation.

So I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what the different venues of education, online courses, in person, workshops, conferences, books, one on one coaching.

Every one of them fits a purpose, but every one of them needs to be different because what you're going to that person for that conference, for that workshop for might fit one aspect of your business.

What do you think people should be thinking about as they, they're like, okay, going to convince me I've got to get some more education, I've got to get more savvy with my business. Where do I start? Is it an honest assessment of where they are or is it, I don't even know where to start. Let me just go to a coach and find out.

What's the. What's the best thing for people to do when they know they're about to move on to something bigger?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:55:35

Yeah, I think it's what do. What's my goal? Right? What's my vision? Where do I want to go?

And then finding a person that you feel like you resonate with, because finding the person that resonates with you, that's going to guide you and help you, or even that you're going to buy a course from is so important. Like, listening to podcasts is a great way to do it. Getting to know the person's voice, it's like, are they saying things? And I'm like, yes.

Oh, my gosh, where's this been my whole life? Then you're like, okay, this person's somebody for me. Looking at their online presence.

Like, if you see somebody and they're like, if you see somebody online and you look at their pictures and you look at the way they're dressed and you look at the way they present themselves, and you're like, I don't really like that. Then don't hire them as your business coach and don't buy the course from them. Right?

Like, find people that are like you, that get you, and don't be afraid to reach out to people. Like, I'm a normal person. Like, people can message me on Instagram. I will talk to them.

I will pick up the phone and talk to you while I'm driving down the road. It's cool. I don't have anything else to do driving down the road.

And I think people are sometimes afraid of, like, these figures that they see online to, like, actually go up to them and talk to them or reach out to them. And I think that the thing is, most of us are just like you, and we want to talk to you, and we're cool to talk to you.

So just, like, don't be afraid to reach out to those people saying, hey, here's where I'm at. Can you help me? Am I a lost cause? What is it?

I mean, like I said, I love doing this because I love helping people, and I think it's what I was put on this earth to do. But, like, if I can have a conversation with you, I'm happy to. I'm not gonna be like, yes, to talk to me in the DMs for five minutes.

I'm gonna charge you a hundred dollars. Right? That's not how this works. We want good giving, and that's. That's why we have podcasts. Right? We have Podcasts, because we want to give back.

Matt Stagliano: 00:57:15

And I wanted to ask you about that as you start to start to land this plane a little bit. Your podcast, I've been digesting in chunks and I love it because it is short form, as opposed to this, which is a little bit longer form.

You have 20 minute, 30 minute chunks, right? A lot of it is you sitting in front of a microphone and talking about a lot of these topics.

How have you felt that podcasting has assisted in your coaching or assisted in your own business?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:57:45

Yeah, so I started. I don't even know why I started the podcast. I was like, I want to do a podcast.

I think I had been on a few other podcasts with people, like people that interviewed me. And I had a few people are like, you should do your own podcast. And I was like, okay, I'll do this.

But I think the thing is, is that I would see these questions asked repeatedly over and over again in Facebook groups, and I would so badly want to just be like, let me sit here and type a 30 minute answer to you and tell you how to price yourself. But I couldn't, right?

Or I talked to people on the phone and they would tell me like, I don't know how to price myself, or I'm just starting out or what? You don't use a price list? Are you crazy?

And I would have these conversations and instead of having to explain myself over and over again, I was like, I can just make podcast episodes about these topics. And then when I see people that need help or support or they ask a question about something like, hey, I have a podcast episode.

Go listen to me ramble about it for 30 minutes and give you all the details and then that will help you. And they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. And so I think again, it's one of those things where you can give back freely with the podcast.

You can share your knowledge, you can help the industry, because above all else, like, I want everybody in our industry to be paid well. I want my next door neighbor and my competitor to charge their worth. And if we can all do that, it helps all of us.

So I think that's really, really valuable and why the podcast is so important. And podcasting in general is so helpful to the world we live in.

Matt Stagliano: 00:59:05

Mentors that are out there outside of the photo industry, Name some names. Who do you really like that's resonating with you right now?

Karinda Kinsler: 00:59:13

For the last, like five years, I have not. I've kind of.

I was such a workshopaholic and such A that I kind of told myself that I needed to learn how to trust myself and stop hiring people to try to fix me. Because our industry breeds this mentality that we always need the next person to fix us or fix our business. And that's not that the truth?

Yeah, we have to at some point in time stop and say like, I know what I'm doing and I have to trust myself. So I have kind of like really stepped away hardcore from being that space.

However, there is one podcast that I listen to anytime I need a pick me up, I listen to the Mindset mentor. I love his podcast with Rob Dial.

That is one of the things that anytime I talk to somebody that they're like struggling with mindset or they're in a funk, I always say like, go listen to his podcast. They're quick 15 minute episodes. He drops three a week. And it's just a good way to get yourself out of a funk if you're in one.

And anytime I start looking for the next person to fix me or fix my business when I'm in a funk, I really have tried hard to stop myself and say that's not what I need. I have the knowledge, it's all in my brain. I can do the research, I can go do the stuff myself. And I need to learn to trust myself.

So those of you that are chronic workshop mentoraholics, I'm a mentor and I'm telling you something that hurts the way I am making part of my money right now. But you don't always need a mentor. Sometimes you just have to trust yourself.

Matt Stagliano: 01:00:41

I love, love, love that advice.

I think many of us arrive at that point a little bit too late because we either a run out of money or time and we just can't, we can't go to any more workshops.

And there comes that time where you do have to start trusting yourself and saying, well, I'm going to jump off this cliff and hope I can build the wings on the way down. We don't give ourselves enough credit for what we do know. Let's start talking about how people can learn from you.

Let's talk first about where they can find your book, where they can get your mentoring, where they can find your podcast. You got so many things going on. I don't know how you have time to also run your family and deal with a five, six year old.

Karinda Kinsler: 01:01:25

Yeah, four. Four year old.

Matt Stagliano: 01:01:26

I don't even, I think it really help a lot of folks if they could hear a little bit more from you, get more of your Information. So let's start dividing up your business into these chunks. Where can people find everything that you're doing?

Karinda Kinsler: 01:01:42

Yeah, so Instagram master your mind money on Instagram. We also, if you go to Instagram, search there you'll find all of our links to everything beautiful.

Our book is only available on our website right now. We have it cross the line to anywhere else yet, so you can order it from us.

It's packaged up really cute and fun and you get some fun stickers when you order the book. So that's always a great thing.

And then if you're interested in coaching, just send me a dm, like reach out to me, send me a dm, say, hey, I heard you on the podcast, I want to talk to you and I will chat with you.

Right now we're doing this really fun year long program designed to help people step into selling wall art and selling more wall art, which I am loving because honestly, that's like the most fun part of business when you go from those three to $800 clients to those two to $3,000 clients. So that's what I'm working on this year, really taking people from that shoot and burn place to selling wall art.

And then also people who are at those, you know, already have those three to $4,000 clients but are ready to get those ten $15,000 sales coming through the door. So we have programs for both of those people.

Matt Stagliano: 01:02:45

That's amazing. So mastermindmoney.com really is a jumping off point for everything.

There's nothing like seeing your artwork in printed form, large format on someone's wall. It makes it feel a bit more real than this deluge of digital stuff we see all the time.

There's something powerful about seeing your art on a wall that satisfies at least in me, that little child like, oh shit, it's like kind of putting your coloring on the refrigerator when you're in grade school, right? You feel this sense of pride and when you see it on someone's wall, there's nothing better. Yeah, I may take you up on that course.

I'm for sure going to order a copy of your book. I did see it at wppi. I held it, I flipped through it. It is not an ebook. It is not a pamphlet.

This is a damn near a textbook size volume of information and I can't wait to dig into it. So thank you, Corinda.

Thank you so much for being here, for spending all this time for, you know, kind of giving us everything that is in the book or at least little nuggets of it. I'm hoping. I'm really, really hoping to see you on that big stage at some point at one of these conferences.

Instead of in a booth, I want to see you up on a stage in front of hundreds of people, teaching them this stuff, the stuff that they need to know so that they can break free of some of this dogma that we all hear year after year after year.

Karinda Kinsler: 01:04:21

Thank you for having me.

Matt Stagliano: 01:04:23

Of course. Of course. I'm going to catch up with you soon because I think we have some other things to talk about.

So thanks again, and I will see you hopefully, on the circuit, on the road.

Karinda Kinsler: 01:04:32

Bye.

Matt Stagliano: 01:04:32

All right. Bye. Bye now.