Ep. 033 - Natalie Tischler: The Constructive Imbalance of Creativity

Matt Stagliano 0:00

If you've been a listener of generator for a while, you know that the running joke is that I've never really known how to start a podcast episode. And quite frankly, this week is no different. But what is different is that I get to take a break from talking photography, and I get to dive a bit deeper into the metaphysical aspects of creativity. My guest this week is Natalie Tischler, a dancer, actor, writer and a woman so multifaceted it's hard to believe she has the time to fit in the mystical movement show that's the podcast she hosts and produce on the topics of creativity and expression and healing. I first met Natalie in Missouri because she's the sister of my good friend Mitzi Starkweather, which you can hear that episode in Episode 16. One afternoon, Mitzi took us to a restaurant called crabbies, and it's where I became really intrigued by Natalie's story. Through long conversations, I knew Natalie would be perfect for generator, the conversation that I got today just solidified that assumption even more. We really dig into the concepts of creativity as it relates to the body, how we can achieve a state of flow, how to approach balance, recognizing burnout, and all the techniques that Natalie and I use to address these issues. There's even a bit of talk about pasta sauce, but I'll let you listen so you can get the full context. We could have talked about any one of those concepts for well more than an hour, but we packed them all in, and this one is pretty material dense, so you'll certainly be left wanting more. That's why it is my absolute pleasure to bring to you this week the talented and eloquent Natalie Tischler now on with the show you

I am excited to introduce you to everybody, because I know I've been listening to the mystical movement podcast, your podcast, and I've been really excited by what I hear there and how you're approaching creativity and well being. And expression and healing, and you're bringing all of these things together into like your story that just keeps growing and keeps growing and keeps growing. Before we get into a lot of questions that I have, let's talk a little bit about the podcast and what you're doing now, and the first episode was all about your story, and it's like, 45 minutes long. They're about it's an awesome episode. Gave me a ton of information. Can you summarize it in like, a minute?

Natalie Tischler 2:58

I would actually love to hear your one minute version.

Matt Stagliano 3:01

e else. You morphed that into: 1000

Natalie Tischler 4:20

you definitely passed. You passed, yeah.

Matt Stagliano 4:25

is kind of month of movement,: 1000

Natalie Tischler 4:42

evolved. And it was actually: 1000

Matt Stagliano 7:35

well, you know, you have this, you have this interesting and I for and I forget where to credit it to, but I know you either read it or start or as part of maybe your personal training, but you focused on wellness versus well being, and that kind of fits into this healing that you're talking about a little bit, right? So where we we think we have to, if we have to be healed, then we are healed. That is the end goal. Rather than it being a process, we look at our own personal health, our own mental health, as a score. And you can't score wellness. You can't score well being, and people even confuse the two. Can you talk a little bit about the wellness versus well being, disparity in just how societally we think about it. Absolutely,

Natalie Tischler 8:26

this is something that I love, that goes back to alchemy, actually, which is like, not to confuse words with the concepts that they represent, because wellness and well being, you know, like, Yes, I have an opinion. You can have an opinion. We all ultimately just have opinions on what those are and so with but what I see and where I think it can be really expansive to have different have a conversation of, oh yeah. Like, I wonder if you know, you reading that, or even me, when I whenever I was talking about, I was like, or why I was talking about, it was because I was because I was like, I had never thought of them as separate. But I would definitely say that they have a different connotation, right? You agree? Yep, totally. So like with wellness, I would say that the connotation is more of a like, what's coming to my mind is the visual of a fitness tracker, like an app where it's like, you tick the box, you do the thing again. Whenever I was saying, like, how I was motivated to be well because I wanted to dance, not because I wanted to be well. Like, if you like, you know what I mean, it was a byproduct of the thing saying, kind of, like, with, I want to be creative. That's why I heal, or that's why I do the self discovery, because I want to fuel the creativity. Because I think our natural state is creativity, love, joy and well being. So the World Health Organization uses the word well being to define health. I feel like health and wellness are typically the grouping, right? And then well being has. Is this element that we're starting to dive into more and more. And I've heard people talk about it in relationships too, where, as people, many decades in, even centuries ago, got into marriage as a, like, very contractual thing, or for the farm, or to make the, you know, kids and do the whatever. And now there's this element of like, I want you to be my spiritual equal, and want to do the same things as me, and you have all of these other needs that are needing and not even needing to be met, that we have the privilege of getting to meet. Right? Like, not everyone who has problems today has problems, such as, how do I maximize my mental, physical and emotional well being. That's such a luxurious problem to get to have. I laugh

Matt Stagliano: 10:48

a lot because internally, right, rarely to people's faces, but sometimes in people's faces. But I laugh a lot because the things that I hear myself complain about, and maybe I'm depressed, or maybe I'm just angry about something, or annoyed, right? Whatever it might be, it gets you into this negative mind state, and you have to step back and look at it in the grand scheme of you know the universe, and realize the fact that you can't find the pasta sauce that you're looking for at the grocery store amongst the 300 different pasta sauces, is really not that big of a problem. Or if someone cuts you off, it's not that big of a problem. I think your note there about you know, some of these issues being luxurious issues to have is something a lot of folks kind of forget in the moment we become very self absorbed, self centered. It's a natural thing for us to do, but it it bears a little bit of, let's step back and laugh at the absurdity of what we're complaining about.

Natalie Tischler: 11:51

And I think it really is a testament to the emotional health part of things, because rarely is it about the pasta sauce in that situation, you know, like, it's really not there's something much deeper there, typically, but, and so then in that moment, even saying, Oh, this is a privilege problem, this is a first world problem, is actually kind of like bypassing it, though. So you're still really not addressing it, even though, like you said, it can be really healthy to laugh it off and like, and that's where, again, it's not just like, oh, did I laugh off my problems today check the box on the fitness app, like, or did I cry about all of my problems today and then check off that in the fitness app? And that's where this sense of the choice getting to make a choice, right? You have a choice in that moment of, Am I going to let the pasta sauce stress me out. And if it's like no, that is probably because it's a petty problem. But if it is yes, then where does that take? You invite that emotion to the table. Why am I so frustrated right now? And these are practices, it's kind of like with a dance. That's like being able to get to that level of choice is like doing a pirouette and a dance. You're not just going to be able to pop up and do that necessarily, like you got to get your footwork down first. You got to get there. So there are these different muscles, quote, unquote, that you can flex just like you would for your physical health, for your mental health and for your emotional health.

Matt Stagliano: 13:18

You had tied this in as well. In one of your later episodes about strength and power, there's a third element in there. What was that? Yes,

Natalie Tischler: 13:29

so very key here in the process, stability first, because, right, anything you're going to strengthen is what you're strengthening is whatever that base is, whatever you have of the basic movement patterns down, that's what you're then going to strengthen. And then through the strengthening, that's how you get to power. And now what that is, is the OP T model from NASM, the National Academy of Sports Medicine, where I was just certified as a personal trainer. So that is actually the fundamental op. T stands for optimum performance training. And so that's the optimum performance training model of get the stability down first, then whatever you that way you have the right muscle imbalances and stuff like that. Because I got strong in some patterns that I don't necessarily want to be as strong in anymore, right? And I've had some years of softening now that I've been spending a lot more time writing than acting and dancing, but I'm really excited now I'm like starting myself up on being my own little first client as a personal trainer to correct some muscle imbalances, not because I don't think I'm already a great dancer, or whatever it is, but I know that if I fix that, I'm gonna get more power, like, I'm gonna be able to do go further, right? It's not just that, oh, I've never been able to do the split, so I never can, or whatever it is. It's like, no, there's something about the way that you walk every day that's holding your hips and imprinting and strengthening and repeating that thing. That's why that part of you hurts for the most cases. You know, there's scoliosis, there's other stuff, but in general, that's that's the case. And so that's why stability is so key for the beginning, and I think it applies to so many different things, right? Say, with editing, what if you got on a tool, and there's a lot of ways to do it wrong, right? Or to do it in a way that takes 1000 more hours, right? And so if that's the way that you start learning the basic movement pattern, and then you start doing that over and over and over, that's what you're going to strengthen, and that's ultimately what you'll have power in. And it's like, is that the power that you want? It's

Matt Stagliano: 15:37

a really interesting concept, and I could talk about this for hours, right? Because you tie it very well to creativity, right? And I love talking about, you know, how we use creativity, but I'll, I'll keep it defined here for a second. It's reps in a gym, right? That's what you have to do to build the strength, to increase your power, right? But you have to have this baseline first, where you start, all right, I know I can bench press 100 pounds. I can squat this many pounds. I can yada yada, yada. And then from there you increase reps in, increase weight or number, or whatever your goals are at the end, so that you can create the power that you want to create. Now, the interesting thing that I find is that folks forget about the repetition part of it and that it is going to take time. It's why it's called a yoga practice. It's why it's called meditation practice, right? Because it's those moments where you do try it and you realize that your neurons aren't firing the right way. Your body has to learn this new thing that you're doing over time that strength builds and that power builds, and you now are teaching your body how to react to emotions and trauma, and, you know, physical forces, all of the things that come along with change, the overwhelming capital C change that we try to go through right? And you hit resistance after resistance, and you want to quit, and there are tangents and there are rationales and reasons to not do the thing. But what I love about how simple this model is, you have your base, you do the work. You increase yourself now, at the end of that, you have a new baseline, and you do more work, and then you become a better version. And it's, it's a great parallel to what we do in creativity, which is, I want to paint or sculpt or photograph or dance or write or whatever. And when we do it, at first, we suck at it, suck badly at it, and then it just takes the dedication to the reps to keep moving forward and to keep growing and to keep producing, knowing that this discomfort, this resistance, this antipathy that we get from time to time is just a natural part of the process we're so driven to have a problem, find a solution, press a button, make it go away. In a world where everything has been made very, very easy, that we've forgotten that the effort that goes into it is often just as powerful as the end result that you're striving for. As you tie this into creativity and from your background as a dancer and a performer, do you find that there are any part of the phase that folks hit the most resistance in, or that you've hit the most resistance in? Is it at the early stages. Is it when you plateau and you just can't get any more out of the engine because you don't know what, you don't know of how to fix it? Where do you tend to meet that most resistance? Is it the beginning, middle or towards the end?

Natalie Tischler: 18:57

Well, I would say the beginning and but I would add to what you were saying, I literally had a thought today that was like, Man, if I keep on preaching how it actually takes work and you have to put in reps, is like, anyone gonna listen? Because I'm not selling quick wins, like, wait, wait. And I acknowledge that it was just a thought. And the mind is tricky, you know, but it was definitely, like, literally, a thought that I had. So I would say that Case in point, one of where people get stuck is they get sold rock hard abs by summer, and it's May 3, you know, or what like, and as if that's as if that's real. And even if the results do get there, it's not necessarily in a way that's super secure, or, you know, like, there are ways maybe to do that, but it's like, do they involve massive dehydration and all of these other things that, as far as the long term, which, again, you're not thinking about, and there's a study that's been done on this, the reason you'll always work out tomorrow is because present, you does not. Associate tomorrow you as the same person. That's tomorrow's use problem. That's not your problem. Working out, isn't your problem. Totally, of course, I'll do or not even working out, whatever the thing is, I'll do XYZ tomorrow. Then it's not my problem, right? And then, because, like I was saying, every day, you're have the opportunity to be born again like the sun and so then you're here I am as this new person, potentially the choice, right? I think our main Creative Power is our ability to choose, like when we open up our eyes, what do we want to do? What's the first thing that we do? Where do we go? What do we put in our body? How do we move our body? What are our relationships? You know, like all of these things we do now, there's going to be external factors impacting us, but ultimately, your greatest creative power is your ability to make choices and like because every with every choice that you make, you're creating a different alternate right? You're creating strength in one of those different directions. But that's where we get to. I definitely resonate with the plateau element. Though. I read a book a long time ago that talked about the path of mastery. As you get an initial like, oh my gosh, I start to get better, and then you get a little bit worse, and then you plateau, and then you have a nut, and then you're doing your reps, you're doing your reps, or you fall off, you know, or whatever, or you don't, because there's no more quick wins, or whatever it is that. So you hit that first plateau, and then suddenly you'll hit the next spike, and then it'll drop down a little bit, and then you'll plateau again, and up each of those steps go until ultimately, you're at whatever point of power, or, you know, the goodness you want to be at in the particular whatever it is you're mastering,

Matt Stagliano: 21:43

gonna go back about 30 seconds and you were talking about, you know, the future you versus the present you. And this is one of the things that I learned from from Sue Bryce years ago, in terms of just journal prompting, how we speak to ourselves and what we say about ourselves is not I need to make $100,000 next year, or I'm going to start working out or whatnot, right in the present tense, right? I am working out and create that person that is the future version of you, but start speaking like it's already occurred. There is a power in that, because you do start to shorten that time between present you and future you by assuming the identity of that person that you want to be, and now you're creating an entirely new version of you that you are ingraining the beliefs in yourself that that is who you are, so you're negating this bumping heads between present you and future you do you use any of those techniques when you're journaling or thinking about this stuff. It's clear that you kind of monitor your own thoughts all the time. But how do you approach that with, you know, journaling, or keeping yourself on track? Because we can fall off of it so easily,

Natalie Tischler: 23:06

but I can't. No, I've been journaling. I'm literally sitting next to a tub of I put them in a tub because they were in a wooden thing, until we've got flooded, and thank goodness they were protected. But I was like, this is now going in, like a waterproof thing, but I have years and years of journals. I've always been a journaler. I absolutely love it. I encourage it as a practice, for sure, but so I definitely do that. And I have a way of doing that that comes from the Celtic druid alchemy, magic that I love so much. And so in this there's this idea of, Okay, think of like what we call past, present, future. Okay, right? So you're talking about like present you, future you. There's also past you, you know, is another one of those things that you can butt heads with. We go back there all the time, anyone you know, like you know, so as much as we can be worrying about the future, we also go back and have feel guilt or shame about the path, right? There's that one too. So they describe it as root pattern destiny. So if you think of it as the past is just the root, the present is the pattern, and then the future is the destiny. So kind of like what we were going back to talking about reps, right? Like, what's the basic movement pattern the past is the root of that you were doing. You're saying, Oh, I know. I can bench press 100 How do you know that you didn't just, we weren't born knowing that or being able to do that? There's still a basic pattern there, right? There's something that's rooted the basic pattern and then the destiny, till ultimately, what it becomes like, if your knees are going in every time you squat, when you're squatting 200 your knees are going to be going in until, ultimately, whatever that can cause, as far as injury and stuff like that. And it won't necessarily, but it really increases the likelihood and stuff and your body is also doing this, like, kind of economics around, like, Oh, if I compensate here, then, like, this can be here, and that sort of thing, what I do. And. Where I journal, especially on new moons and full moons, whenever I'm doing something more like intention setting me, I have been, I am, I will be. So if it's like, say, yeah, the like something around money, it's like, I have been dealing with a scarcity mind, it mindset I am feeling more abundant every day I will see whatever dollars in my bank account. So you're associating that sense of acknowledging the root pattern and destiny, destiny and ultimately that I am in the context of the root and the destiny, or the past and the future.

Matt Stagliano: 25:42

I think that's a really important point, because we can focus on pretty much any one of those things really, really well. It's a bit more difficult and takes a few more reps, a little bit more practice, to be able to see all three at once and keep them interconnected, right? It's easy to say I was a piece of shit and in my past and all of those thoughts being negative, but I'm going to be Superman in the future and all that's way out of reach positive. And then you're stuck here in the middle, and you can say, well, I'm doing the best I can, right? And so what we what we're able to do is hyper focus on one of them, but it takes a lot of practice to look at them all and keep them all connected in a way that is healthy for us to be thinking about it rather than doing more detriment. Under the guise of I'm journaling and I'm writing all my stuff down. It's very easy to see when I go back through my old journals, like, wow, I know exactly where my head was. I was like, just you, the words I was using were not really helpful. It might have helped. Felt good to vent it out into paper, but it wasn't helping me create a better version of myself. That's

Natalie Tischler: 27:00

the choice part, right? Like, you know what I mean going and why it's ultimately so creative, if you had somehow had an awareness in that moment, right, that future, you was coming in and being able to say, look at this this way, look at this this way, as if you could have had that kind of like as a download in the moment and all of a sudden made a new choice of, I may have felt this way about that situation, but I am. And then choice as far as what's being made new, you know, like that. There's so much power in that, but there's also a lot of power in giving yourself grace when you go back through those older journals, too. I know that part very well. Cool.

Matt Stagliano: 27:39

It's, right, you know, again, this is me looking at it and kind of laughing right. As you grow you kind of realize, like, Oh, I'm never gonna ride downhill on a mountain bike. And then you do it a couple of times, you're like, Oh, I guess I can do it. It's not that hard, it's not that bad, but it was this big scary thing. And I think as I read back, I'm like, Oh, wow, that part of me thought that was such a big scary moment. Hey, here I am now. It really wasn't that scary, and I know how to approach it next time it comes around, so I like going back through that, just to again remind myself, too of how far you do come as you start to grow. All right, so now we've got our person who's not only well adjusted, but they've got their thoughts in line, and they find themselves in the state of flow. Now, as a creative I know in hindsight, when I was in a state of flow, sometimes you feel it in the moment. For me, rarely do I feel it in the moment? Because I'm just doing like I come down and I look at it and I go, Oh, I was really in flow, that felt awesome, that was effortless, that state also becomes something where you can create the skills, create the reps to achieve it more often. Now, I know that state of flow has been something that you've talked about quite a bit, and maybe we can dig in there a little bit, because I know, for example, when I'm when I'm photographing someone, let me step back when I book a client, and we go through our consultation and they're coming in for their session this morning. Inevitably, I've been doing this a long time. Inevitably, I've got butterflies, I've got imposter syndrome, I've got all these things kind of mixed up, giving me bubble guts and going, this is not gonna go well. I do the shoot. Everything always goes well, knock on wood. And then at the end, I can look back and be like, Wow, these pictures are great. I don't even remember taking some of these, because I was so in the moment of just creating for me, creating for the client, there was nothing else on my mind, and that's a wonderful place to be, because I'm not clouded by all this other. Stuff that I have to do from your perspective. Are there techniques that you've learned throughout your career, or things that you're practicing now that help you get into that state of flow? I don't want to say on demand, but more easily,

Natalie Tischler: 30:16

yeah, and it all comes back to presence. Yeah, that present moment. And it's actually so interesting how you just described that, because you were talking about being in the work, right? And then the consciousness was able to come on later, which is a really interesting way to think about because I wouldn't say you weren't present during the shoot, right? Well, it sounds like you were incredibly present during the shoot, and yet this voice wasn't there. So that voice, I'm just this, is turning into, like, an inquisition, but

Matt Stagliano: 30:55

like, because I don't really think about it until I got into this conversation about flow, I just know when it has occurred. And if you've spoken to me for any length, which we have, I do stay relatively present, and I'm pretty good about being in the moment. However, when I'm in that creative flow, when I'm making music or maybe I'm editing a video, or I'm working in the wood shop, or whatever it is, where I'm just producing with abandon, with no expectation, that is when I find that I'm doing some of my best work, and that at the same time I'm not Even thinking that, Oh, great, I'm in flow. Perfect. Now I know I'm going to make something good, right? As

Natalie Tischler: 31:44

soon as you are you're not really in flow. I'm out of it.

Matt Stagliano: 31:47

I'm gone, yeah,

Natalie Tischler: 31:49

so you just answered your question, really, because it's that sense of the of no expectation, right? Because that that's, that's what's differentiating it from those other moments of that voice being in your head. So one of my favorite books is called the inner game of tennis, and it was recommended to me by an acting teacher in college. He was like, this is the best acting book you'll ever read, but it's about tennis and mindset. But in this book, he talks about how people, whenever, like, say they swing. He's coach. He coaches people in tennis and say they swing and they miss, and they're going, oh, shoot, I should have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, Who are you to look into? I'm talking to myself. He's like, okay, so he starts to break down. I and myself. And this is something I have seen in because I taught hundreds of dance classes, and I see it time and time again. We spend 55 minutes learning the dance, and people have got it, and we're running through it, and we're having a good time. And then it's like, Okay, guys, let's bring out the camera and film. And all of a sudden, people don't they're like, I learned to dance. What like, like, what do I do with my hands? I don't know. What do I do with my face? Like, like, oh, and all of but it's to the exactly what you said. I do such good words for it. There's no expectation. Or, well, there wasn't for 55 minutes besides the doing of it, the learning of it, and then all of a sudden there's this expectation. So in this book, he breaks down I and myself into person one and person two, where the I is this conscious thinking, all right, I am talking to myself, so the I is that consciousness, while the myself is the part that actually does it, because the myself was the part doing the reps, the myself was in the class, learning the movements, doing it, because your brain, in that moment is going 5678, or, you know what I like, it's that's why I love to give that the brain a little task of like, okay, conscious the eye, part of it you can count, rather than trying to now come in. You were gone for 55 minutes. You want to come back in now and tell me how to do this dance that you are not here to learn. Like No, get out of here like myself. It has to come through myself. And so I think that there's when it comes to like, getting into that state on demand, there's one just the practice of the abandon and that being a safe place like that, there is not just an expectation. And this is why healing is so important. Because especially if it relates to trauma, like you're not going to be able to leave that hyper vigilance, like you're not going to be able to leave that place of I have to control the situation, because, if not, I could get hurt very badly, like, like that, like I'm getting kind of emotional thinking about it. Like there was definitely a long time that I I know that I was like the the amount of control, the amount of forcing that I was doing was very much because that was how I survived. I. And it's like, again, you know what you're talking about, going back to those journals, like giving that self grace, but again, why it's so important. But like, just to be hope, give anyone hope who's like in that place, like you can unlearn it, though, right? You can arrive to a place of security and to a place of where abandon is a really joyful thing, rather than something that puts you into fight or flight. Because even you describe going into the photo shoot, that sense of butterflies, you know, and those kinds of things, and if you are somatically, in a place where that level of uncertainty or excitement, just like the body doesn't necessarily know the difference between fear and excitement, and especially if you are used to that fear really having bad consequences, then that can really mimic a scary situation versus one that's ultimately positive and creative, like your photo shoot. And so I think that that's why healing can be so important around that flow state, because if you really don't feel safe surrendering, if you do not feel like you can trust, then you're not going to go to that place of abandon and have no expectation, because you are controlling for survival for

Matt Stagliano: 36:16

a long time, mainly in the corporate career, but even early on in my photo career, I was in a constant state of fight or flight. I had grown up without going too far into the story with this constant survival mentality, I've got to survive. I've got to get through this home situation. I've got to get through bullies. I've got to get through my own neurodivergency, I've got to get through all these things that I don't understand how to handle. And it created this survival instinct, right? And a lot of habits in me that have affected relationships and business and money, and I mean, it all cascades. But I found that after so many decades of living in this state that it became my normal, it became my baseline. It was only after I really started to look inward that I realized there was so much attributed to burnout, of perfectionism, of trying to make the situation better, trying to control things over and over, because I felt like, if I could control my environment, then everything will be okay. And to a degree, that's exactly what I did. But keeping your mental state, your adrenal system, everything going at Red Line for so many years creates this burnout, this feeling of on we this this desire to do nothing, but just kind of get to tomorrow. I know that burnout has been something that was difficult for me to recognize at first, but after doing all the work that has been done, it's easier to recognize if I'm acting a certain way towards my friends, if I'm feeling less interest or less motivation to do the work that I love do the stuff that I love doing, if I'm not doing it or desiring to do it. I've realized that these are early symptoms of burnout, probably not even early symptoms. They're probably, you know, pretty moderate symptoms of burnout. This is something I know you've dealt with in the past. Again, I'm I know how I've dealt with things, and I've got my own techniques for seeing that, but I'm always interested in talking about burnout, because we've become so accustomed in the United States to being burned out and having it be a badge of honor, then having it be something that is physically and mentally detrimental. We say, you know, hey, how you doing? Oh, I'm so busy I can't even get anything done, and I've got no time for this, and the kids and the job and yada yada yada again, all of that is a choice, right? It's all a choice of how you approach some of these things. I used to try to compete. Yeah, you're tired, I'm more tired. You're busy. I'm busier, right? Because we're trying to build tribe, we're trying to relate, we're trying to do these things, but all we're doing is sharing this awful trait that we have together and saying, Yeah, we're both in this deep, dark pit. Do you know how to get out? No, but let's keep talking about the pit. So how do you deal with burnout when you are going through these periods of severe, I don't want to say mental anguish. That's not the right word, heaviness, this weight, right? Where you've just got a lot of things to sort out or heal or deal with, and it starts to bring on those feelings of burnout. How do you deal with that? I

Natalie Tischler: 39:51

think I deal with it differently now than I used to, because the foundation of the house is better, right? So even though, like, it burns. Out coming in is like a hurricane, or whatever, you know, like the I've got a generator, you know what? I mean? Hey, I know at the beginning it was a lot more pain was, to your point of, like, much more severe anguish would have is a great word to use. I feel like now it's, I don't even really let myself get burned out. And I would say, why is like the like, the tool, or how I deal with it, is how I think of polarity as a whole. I think of everything as one, ultimately. So like, there's just like a oneness, and then, but within that, there's like that which is, and then that which is not, which ultimately makes polarity. And so then now we're dancing with two, and then that dance of two ultimately makes three. And so then you have 123, you know, like, and everything is off. And that three is like the cycling through everything. And so I think when I think of polarity, and why I think of it for burnout, is because there are active and passive forces. There's like radiating and receiving energy. There's the sun and then the moon, you know. And so you've got these two forces, this dynamic, this polarity. And so I don't think anymore of being busy having to look like a ton of things on my calendar. Being busy doesn't have to mean a ton of radiating energy or active forces. Being busy can actually be a lot of receiving and being a lot of passive, you know, like, passive is still a force, active is a force. And so it's like, that's why I don't necessarily get into burnout now, because it's like, am I balanced between my active forces, my power determination, the radiating energies, versus my receiving energies, my passive energies. And so I can clock very quickly. It's how I built my schedule around the moons, especially like in just what I do to work like the podcast is released on new moons and full moons, and it's like cyclical, and it's part of a ritual. And so there's not the sense of like you were saying, Oh, I have to do it, or I have to, you know what I mean, grinding into that. It's like, and as soon as I feel that, it's one of those muscles, right, as soon as I feel that, not always, but nowadays, as soon as I feel that, I know it's time to not do it, whereas before, it was definitely like, Oh, this feels bad. Try harder. And it was then get more busy and push, push, push. Radiate, radiate, radiate. Active, active, force, force, force. Versus like, wow, it's time to receive. It's time to be passive and acknowledge that I'm still getting where I need to go, or whatever. I think, ultimately too. Actually, what's helped a lot with my concept of burnout is this quote by I think Joan Didion, where she's like, I don't even know if making the world a better place is part of it. Like, is even actually possible, like, the world is just the place that it is. Going back to the oneness side of things, right? And so it's like, where am I really trying to get to? It's Zeno's theory of incompleteness, the difference between the distance from like me to you, right? I would have to go halfway, and then I have to go half of that, then I'd have to go halfway that you never get there. And so I feel like that's also something that's helped. I haven't always had that mindset, that awareness, and that helps a lot with burnout.

Matt Stagliano: 43:18

I hadn't connected those two. And I love that radiant versus receiving energy. I certainly spend more time in the radiant energy world, right? I think most of us do, because that's just how we're built now, where we're constantly trying to produce, produce, produce, put out, put out, more more more expectation on us from everywhere, and so we feel wrapped up in that energy and that rest and relaxation and reception feels like Slack, laziness, procrastination, and it's nothing other than your own perception of what that means. I just hadn't heard those two like the polarity discussion and speaking about them in that way, about balance, I am often someone if you've talked to me for 30 seconds, you'll know that I am generally out of balance in one way or another, and I pendulum swing between I'm wildly happy and wildly upset, and that can happen in the span of 30 seconds, and then I'm back to happiness. But there's this, you know, I'm only in one state, and it's the seesaw that's constantly going up and down. And rarely do I ever feel like, ah, the oceans are calm. I'm in balance. This is how it's supposed to be, where, again, we're at that, that concept of flow, right there is this, this ultimate point where I envision myself in balance. Quote, unquote, balance, air quotes, balance, whatever balance means to you. I find that I'm constantly trying for balance, which. Probably counter intuitive now that I say it out loud instead of just doing the things that I know, bring me happiness, bring me pleasure, bring me rest, bring me strength, right? All of these different things tie in to the overall concept of balance, and by trying to do too much to achieve balance, you're actually throwing yourself more out of balance. I think that's, that's kind of pretty much how I define it. But I love that, that you have this, this concept of the polarity of the energies, and that therein is the answer. It is finding the balance of those forces. Well,

Natalie Tischler: 45:39

two things. One, there's a great saying perfect balance is perfect stagnation, and so that it's not even about trying to achieve balance. There's the concept of constructive imbalance, and that's that just the right amount of resistance, that just the right amount, there's, like a challenge threshold before it becomes, you know, not so frustrating that you don't even want to do it, but just challenging enough. That's this constructive imbalance. It's this pendulum swing, because that's the dance, right? That's the three, that's the cycles. That's the fact that, yes, there's the two sides, but we're going to be cycling through them. And so it's never even about actually, a lot of the magic wasn't even done on new moons and full moons. It was done on the weak point on the quarter moon, because it's imbalance. Same with like, it's not about the equinoxes, it would be about the solstice, whenever it's all sun, and note where there's a lot of imbalance versus balance, like, right on an equinox. But the other thing that I would say there is you were talked about being in the radiant, radiating energy a lot more than the receiving energy. But I would even argue that, and this just hit me as you were talking, like, actually, though we're receiving all the time. Like, anytime you get on your phone, you know, and you look at something where you're receiving whatever it there's like a consumption about it. What are you consuming? Are you consuming sunlight and water, or are you consuming social media, news and alcohol? You know like you're gonna feel really different from receiving either of those. You laugh you lot,

Matt Stagliano: 47:16

so attacked, you're reframing things in a way that just make a lot of sense for me. Now, that isn't the same for everyone, but by reframing these things, hearing, reading, listening, watching, receiving, these different ways of looking at it is really starting to help me, do you find that there is a source that you go to a lot when you know that you need to grow, when you know that you need to learn more about a subject? Do you read? Do you watch? Do you just think? Do you dance like what's the thing that gets you back into that growth mindset and that growth mentality.

Natalie Tischler: 48:04

All of the above. Yeah, definitely all of the above above. I love learning. I'm a really good learner. I learn all the time, like, like, it's something so I'm right. Like, as soon as the certification ended, I picked up another course, and I'm also going to do the certified nutrition coach as well. Yeah, I think that there's something where it's almost like an accomplishment kink, you know, where you just like have to achieve and but which definitely why, again, leads to burnout and those kinds of things. And so it's like, oh, can the accomplishment be sitting in silence by the river. Can I? Because, to your point, I think that the awareness, or having a different like changing the perspective around some of these things, is really what it takes, because that ultimately changes the behavior, which ultimately changes the material manifestation. And so that's why I think it's so important the power of the stories we tell ourselves, the power of the beliefs that we hold, because they do shape that frame. Like, what does success look like? What is love, you know? What is divinity like? Your answers to those questions are going to affect the work that you do, how busy you are, like going back to again, why I don't feel burnt out anymore is because I'm not trying to get anywhere besides, like, more joy every day. You know what I mean, curiosity. Curiosity is an incredible fuel. It actually replaced, like, what used to be a, oh, I hope one day I'm good enough. You know, kind of like motivation. And a lot of people don't want to get rid of that, because then they're like, Well, what will happen to my fire? What will happen my willpower if I'm not trying to get that, it's like, oh, we're actually incredibly curious and creative and imaginative, and stuff can fill that space. And so actually, to answer your question, though, I would say right now, the place that I go is silence, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's like, revolution. Missionary, I am going to drop the most amazing idea on you. You can sit in silence.

Matt Stagliano: 50:12

Do you have a course on it? Because I think that would

Natalie Tischler: 50:15

just did it. We just did it. That's the whole

Matt Stagliano: 50:17

but don't give it away.

Natalie Tischler: 50:20

I'm all about value. I

Matt Stagliano: 50:21

think you're right. You know, there was a day, I think it was last Thursday. I was prepping for a weekend away, and I'll get to that in a minute, but I was sitting on my deck with my dog, I realized I hadn't spoken to another human in two days by not getting all this input from social media and from people's opinions and just, you know, satisfying friends and talking to people that I know, it gave me a lot of contentment. It gave me a lot of peace. I then went to a weekend house music festival out in New York thrown by a buddy of mine, and there were a lot of people there, and I get sensory overload. It was amazing music and wonderful vibe. Really, really cool. People had a great time. But there were stretches 567, hours where I'm watching DJs perform sets, and I spoke not a word for seven hours, and it was this quiet contentment again amidst the chaos. So when you're finding your quiet, when you're finding your silence, when you're doing that, are you able to do that, like, Do you have a certain section of your home? Do you need to, you know, have a meditation room? Maybe you're doing yoga or something to that effect. Or can you achieve that by remaining active as well?

Natalie Tischler: 51:45

I think it can definitely be both. I would say that I hesitate in any practice to make it too religious again, tick the ball the boxes in the app, and then I've got and then I tracked it, and then I did my meditation. It's like, no, if I didn't feel my heart open, you know, I was talking to a friend about this the other day. She was talking to this guy who was saying that you went to this men's retreat, and it was all great. And she's like, Yeah, but did you cry? And he was like, no, no, but I heard, I heard about speakers on enlightenment and Bucha. And she's like, did you cry? He was like, like, there was no, no heart in it, you know, no. Like, like, not that the crying is the only way, but based on where this person was, as far as emotional availability, she knew it was like, the right the right question. And lately, I have a timer on my phone that I just press, start on Play, press whatever, start on for 45 minutes, and I just hit that as soon as I've, like, brush my teeth, everything ready for bed. That way I can, like, just get right into bed after and I just lay on my yoga mat. I don't have to do anything. I can stretch if I want. I can dance if I want, or whatever. But I just lay on my mat in silence, and I can, yeah, go into, like, pigeon pose for 10 minutes, or whatever it is. But ultimately, like, what I'll do is lay there. And as soon as I start to hear that voice, this kind of gets back into this helps you master that I and myself, right, that, like, top part of you that's talking, and not to soon as I hear it going, I just go silence, and then I come back. And then usually, like, three seconds later, I have to say, silence again. But, you know, but I'm doing it and like and that has been the space that I've created.

Matt Stagliano: 53:23

I like that. I think there's a we don't place enough value on that, just stepping back from it all, everything from the thoughts, from the sounds, from everything. But I think giving yourself all the best environment for you to start practicing that is probably beneficial a separate place, a quiet room away from the kids, non interrupted, whatever it might be, it was an awakening moment for me to realize, as someone who talks for a living, generally, that no words was pretty awesome from anywhere. It was great. I did want to get back to your podcast a little bit, and I know that there was one episode I didn't listen to, but you had three questions in there that you asked me. I'd love to know what that is so full on. Spoil it for me.

Natalie Tischler: 54:15

I love that episode. I love that you're bringing it up because it, to me, is actually like what I consider the methodology behind what I call mystical movement. Why I call it the mystical movement show is these three questions, because it's a dance of mind, body and soul. So the three questions are, what is the story I'm telling myself? What is the action I take because of that story? And then how do I feel doing or thinking that. And so those three questions, it addresses the mind, like, what's the story? Because you could even do this in a dance, right? And if I would perform the same exact choreography differently, if I'm like, pretend you just, like, won a million dollars, right? Versus do this as if your friend just died. You could do the same kind of choreography, but the story is going to completely impact how that manifests physically. So what's the story I'm telling myself? And you gotta listen to the episode, because I really go into how the brain is like a computer, like, it's teleological, and that your success mechanism, essentially, as far as, like, here's the goal. Here's the story. If the story is I am worthy, then all of that unconscious myself part is going to deliver on that right? If the code, like machines run on scripts, your brain is running on these stories, on these scripts that it has, and that's what's operating, as far as, like, how the things manifest. So what's the story I'm telling myself, what do I do because of that story? And then going into the physical you are, you repeatedly do, right? So like, what are the things? How does that physically manifest? And then the emotional side of it, and then how do I feel, doing or thinking that? Because our emotions are such a beautiful guide that connects us back to our heart, which is the fuel of it all. That's the spoiler of the three questions. But I also just love how I lay it out in that episode. As far as like, why the why, if you're not sold, I'm just starting to ask yourself those three questions, you will be sold by the end, I

Matt Stagliano: 56:14

can envision myself writing that at the top of every journal, right? Every day. What am I doing? How do I feel about it? Right? All of those prompts really do make you start to look inward. What's really happening there? What are those involuntary, subconscious feelings? Where do our thoughts come from? Is that really the root of all of this, or is it a little bit deeper? I would tend to believe that almost anything that we think about, there's another reason, a little bit deeper, and then a little bit deeper. Is there ever a point where you get to where you're like, ah, there's the root. Or when you get to that point, you say, well, there's probably something else behind that.

Natalie Tischler: 56:52

I think that we can keep going with that we're infinite. So I could see those questions definitely being infinite. But you know the Tarot, right? You're familiar with Tarot and like the Major Arcana. So I see, and this is based off of a book called The Law of One, that it's this perception of the major arcana as so seven, three sets of seven is 21 right? Three times seven is 21 and then you've got zero, the fool being choice, ultimately being like your choice. Again, the creative, the creative spark behind it all is that you get to choose the fool you know, being you're like. Back to your question, can there be a root? It's like such a fool's question, right? But then it starts with the mind. One, the magician, that matrix of the mind is. And then, like first seven, being all of the mind complex. And then this second set of seven, starting with balance or justice, all the way through to the transformation of the body, death, right to the alchemist, the great way of the body. And then starting again with the spirit, the matrix of the spirit, the devil, all the way the potentiator of the spirit, the catalyst, the experience, the transfer, the significator, the transformation and the great way I love a good system, and it really helped me to understand that these weren't just like, Karen, this is just what the magician means, or whatever it's like, it's part of a system. And so they all start with like, the base of what the mind is, there's the base of what the physical is, there's the base of what the emotional or the spiritual world is. And then how those all go through. So going back to the mind then is, it starts with the magician, and then you have right, High Priestess, Empress, and then Emperor before the hierophant. And so that's where you get into like, this conscious and unconscious. So it's like the magician being like, you know, abracadabra means I create, as I speak. So it's like this very much, this concept of like thoughts become things, and like how so is because of like those stories and right? And then it goes into the unconscious with the emperor, the two feminine High Priestess and Empress, and then the two masculine being the conscious. So that's like the unconscious, and then the conscious mind of the Emperor and the hierophant. And then ultimately, the lovers, this dance between conscious and unconscious, and then the chariot, which is being able to ride on a chariot through the con, back and forth, like you're talking about, do you ever get to the root? It's like, does that chariot ever run out of pathway as far as how it can keep on dancing? And that's just the mind. It doesn't, because we're even to say, Do we get to the root, that's actually a very physical we're so attributing, sure, attributing, or like it's an attribute right of the body, a concept of a root. And that doesn't really apply to the mind complex, like it does the body complex. I love

Matt Stagliano: 59:36

that answer, and I think it's a it's a perfect place to leave it, because I know I'm going to go back and listen to these episodes and really start to think about that a little bit differently. And I definitely want to go back and listen to the two episodes that I haven't listened to yet, and I want everybody to go there and check it out, because this is the kind of stuff that you talk about, right? This isn't like we're exposing anything new here. This is all what's on the mystical movement show. It is everything that you're talking about, and it comes from a lot of your own experience and what you've dealt with. And I love how that comes across so naturally and authentically. You're doing it in real time with an audience, you are taking your past, you are healing yourself, you are questioning everything, and you're coming out with new realizations, and you're taking everyone along for the ride with it. I love how you do that and tie it into creativity and everything that you're doing there too. So as someone you know, again, that loves the the essence of creativity, I think you're doing a phenomenal job. So where can everybody find everything? You

Natalie Tischler: 1:00:49

can just look up the mystical movement show on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. Follow me on Instagram. Send me a DM. If you have any questions about anything, or you want to just talk about anything that we talked about, because, as Matt said, like this, I love talking about this sort of stuff, and I you said that this is what I talk about there, but it's always different whenever it's through someone else's lens. And so I really appreciate all of your awesome questions and bringing all that stuff up. So and then also the mystical movement.com.

Matt Stagliano: 1:01:17

Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. I can't wait to see you next time you're kind of in the New England, Boston area, from Missouri, just give me a holler. I'll drive as far as I need to, and we'll have this conversation again. What

Natalie Tischler: 1:01:31

do you think it's probably better calamari there.

Matt Stagliano: 1:01:33

You know what? We have some seafood in the area.

It's Aight

It's aight, but no, thank you again, so much, and I can't wait to talk to you again soon.

Natalie Tischler: 1:01:44

Thank you. Me too.

Matt Stagliano: 1:01:46

Take care. Bye.